Harrisburg Architectural Review Board Meeting 4-7-2025

All

right. Well, welcome everyone to the

April 7th historic architectural review

board. Um, our first order of business

is uh roll Mrs. Grible here, Miss

Rucker, Miss Bennett, Mr. Henry, and

Miss Ziggler.

Great. Next on the agenda is a review of

our minutes from the March 3rd, 2025

meeting. Have a chance to this

afternoon. Motion a second. All those in

favor say I. I opposed. No abstensions.

No abstensions. Motion

carries. All right. Uh we have no

applications to review today. So the

only item on the agenda is under other

business uh for a preview of some of the

work that uh will become come in a later

application for the Broad Street

Market. Um

so typical procedure is just State your

name and address for the record. You

would state your name and address.

Okay. And um usually we have a re of an

application a summary to go through but

I guess in this case we don't. So should

we just open up the floor or would you

like to stay state a few things

initially here Jeffrey? Uh yeah. So um

tonight's meeting is uh just a

preliminary presentation uh to the board

uh to um provide some uh information and

background about uh details on the

reconstruction of the brick building.

Um, and this is uh to solicit um

questions or comments from the board

members ahead of a formal presentation

at next month's meeting on uh May 5th uh

in which uh a more full uh presentation

uh and documentation uh would be

provided uh to the board. Um but they

did want to get uh again they did want

to get that feedback from the board um

in as far in advance as possible uh for

um that final uh formal uh submission.

Uh and you know we felt that because

there was no uh applications on

tonight's agenda that this would be a

good time um to uh have the board review

this uh as opposed to maybe just sending

this out via email and soliciting

feedback. Um and uh so with that being

said, we haven't provided a a formal um

case report or review of the project

because there's really not a final

formal uh proposal or review. Um and uh

with that, I guess I'll just uh turn uh

the mic over to the applicants so that

they can uh provide a little bit of

background on uh the Broad Street Market

brick building reconstruction. Sure. And

just one item, Rebecca and Peter, you

both represent Murphy Denton Hayer

Architects, right? And working for the

city on the

project. All right. Yeah. If you want to

walk us through your um PowerPoint

presentation, that would be fine. Unless

you have some intro words of wisdom for

us.

We'll we'll just dive right in. Okay. Um

Jeffrey was saying this this

presentation is focused solely on the

brick building.

scope of the project. So um we will

probably be back again at a later date

to talk about other um parts but but

right now it's just the

coping. So Pete and I have been and our

team have been doing a lot of research

um and trying to find as many historic

images as we possibly can of the brick

building um in order to be accurate to

the uh different components of the

building.

So, we've been to the state archives.

We've been to the um you know, we've

we've had some help from historic

Harrisburg. Um we've been to the

Pennsylvania State Library forum and um

gathered as many historic images as we

can. So, some of those

images. Would you mind going back to the

second page for a moment and just orient

us to what this

is showing sorry on

the the right which of those are the

exist existing buildings. So the the the

building to the right the building to

the left is the wood structure that was

uh was previously on the plaza um and

that was taken down part of the project.

So this this street is no longer

Okay, thank you. Sorry. Continue. That

that picture really is more relevant as

we develop the rest of the the big

picture stuff, but

um we did find some some good images of

the interior and exterior.

This really is the the key image that we

found and we're going to come back to it

later in the presentation because um

this is the earliest image that we could

find and we were able to get a high

resolution uh version of it. So, we've

really been studying

this side. Yes, that's the side that

So, we started uh first by looking at uh

the masonry. We have a consultant sheep

restoration that focuses on building

restoration

and things of that nature. So um see

these images here um the image to the

left is showing

that wall is two widths thick with

roughly a one inch air gap space in

between. It's a very slender wall. It's

tall. Um, so we're comfortable, um, that

we're going to be able to stabilize the

wall and use it in our new. Um, some of

the we're proposing is to have 8

in metal stud on the back side of it to

help support it and stabilize the actual

wall. We're also proposing to

uh, grout basically air to

stabilize. Um, One other thing to note

from the brick um the photo to the right

is every

seven. So these are various um images of

the grout um I mean the mortar mortar

and grout uh and there's very different

uh iterations throughout. Um we did do a

in-depth mortar uh analysis and we were

not able to

um throughout the building. Um but we

were able to understand what's currently

on the building and we're

currently finding the right permits um

for the existing brick soft softer brick

and you can tell from the bottom bright.

These are other images of other masonry

issues that we're running into. We have

um there's a water

source building. Um there's some to

attend to

um the worst area um in the nonburn

section. This is an image of the image

to the left is the interior side and the

image to the right is the exterior and

it would be the southwest corner of the

building. Um we're proposing to actually

um take down the wall roughly where the

down spout is on the leftand side and

then um right hand side of the window in

between the window and the door um

because it's not stable. It's containing

water.

for many years. You can see from the

interior side that there was like a

patch job um to try to help to help the

issue. However, it is not really helping

the issue. See on the exterior of how

it's kind of going out that condition.

Um so we really think we got to take

down that portion.

Exactly.

Um these are just some of the elevations

um working on documents outlining

work that is needed to

get

back. Um, we're also looking at the wood

accents

and document.

So, we did paint analysis on the

building as well. Um, we took along with

our consultant um, we took about 23

different paint samples for different

locations both inter exterior building.

Um, from those samples, really only

about six were usable samples because on

the building, um, there was very little

paint remaining in certain areas where

we were really hoping to get paint.

But the what the samples told us is that

um the building was a lot more colorful

than it is than it was right before the

fire where all of the accents the

windows um and all of the wood

ornamentation were paint out white. What

we found was that um really they they

were different colors and the colors

changed over the years. Um and we

started to look at the um the uh

Harrisburg train station which is of the

same era in a similar type of building

um which used a lot of these same

historic colors. So we think that's a

really good reference. Um and we are

still working through what we think

should be but we are going to suggest

some colors that aren't just white some

of the wood

This is just an example of a project

that was on in the past. Um a project in

Gettysburg historic project where again

all of the ornamentation windows um and

trim were painted out white. Um but

after paint analysis uh we learned that

really details were um few different

colors and we got everyone on board with

painting um back the original

colors that analysis told us they were

and um I think the

result

striking. We also did get three good

samples from building um again working

on what what we're going to recommend as

the paint colors, but

um we might be looking at a the exposed

deck on the interior. may suggest

painting that out a slightly darker

shade than some of the structure on the

interior.

So going back to this original

photo, some of the things we notated

in would be some of heights, the type

of built.

This is a

screenshot

right here.

are a lot taller

than we're proposing

to

to the doors back to the original

size. We did have reach out

to window

manufacturers and actually

helps us as

well. So this is just an

example. So it's a six

panel double door. This is the

center. Um so roughly previously around

prior to the

fire and the doors on the north and

south

elevations

center in the

center that

was prior to

so really it's only

short east ends where the doors

were

entry doors along the long

or

short. So, we know that windows are of

contention in a lot of cases, but um we

are again really studying and counting

bricks based off of the 197 image. And

um if you take a look at the image at

the far left, that's the historic image

in the middle. The the res the

restoration work was in the I believe

90s we really didn't keep the

proportions we would like to go

back the

grid portions that were there in 197

image we are proposing um

aluminum

interior exterior aluminum

Um, I really um think that the the

aluminum clad will preserve the

longevity of the windows and really

help, you know, alleviate some

maintenance that the city would would

otherwise have

to every five

years. All of

these and we are working um we've

reached out to a number of manufacturers

and Marvin is our preferred um

manufacturer. They

have a lot of good custom options for

matching the styles and rails and the

mountain profiles to the historic house.

Um and we are um upgrading the building

with um modern HAC system so we do meet

modern energy requirements. So that

means that we have to have insulated

windows. Um, and we are proposing

simulated lights.

I know there's been a concern in the

with the public about what simulated

divided light means. Um, and just for

clarification, um, my understanding is

there's still a wood member or an

aluminum. You're propos we'll talk about

aluminum clad in a little bit, but

there's a raised mutton bar

um on the exterior face of the two the

two panes of glass. Something on the

exterior face and on the interior face.

And then in between the two panes of

glass, there's also a divider that so

you won't see light between the exterior

and an interior piece. So I think some

people were thinking it's just an

interior piece between two panes of

glass. So you'd always get the glossy

look over the mutton pieces. Um that's

not the case with these. A simulated

divided light is to look like a true

divided light window.

We would

start on the interior and

exterior like in the bottom bottom row

second column left and then the spacer

in between so you can't

see we are

styles and um that needs to be the

proportions. It's it's challenging

because we're only using photograph. Um

we know that the windows that still

exist are not original.

So, we're working on that.

If you're done with windows, um could I

ask were the

um the um clear story windows were they

operable?

They were originally operable.

But again, since we are

um we're now going to um be introducing

HVAC into the building, um we are

proposing um fixed double window. So,

they reticable, but they not be operable

because um for one, I don't think

there's anyone at the city who's going

to be going out to opening them, but um

there's also not

long. Yeah, they work. I've been going

here since I was a child.

things to open up

this we are the manufacturers make

operable double windows but we

don't see

and and I do think it's probably

important to note that they had to open

them at that point to allow like air

flow through and the is going to be air

conditioned. There won't be that need

for that um type of you know operation

of

ceiling fans.

Uh no I don't think any

the roofing component um

1907 photo um where we don't we don't

feel that there was a metal roof um used

or slate. Um so we feel the most

appropriate is going back to the asphalt

prior to the fire um going to an

architectural typical asphalt.

And because we do have to bring the um

envelope of the building up to current

we are proposing to add

insulation of the decking.

So we what the way that we're proposing

it is to

um you're required to have continuous

insulation along the building and um so

where the roof stops at the walls where

there's an overhang we can taper the

insulation

down achieved insulation up to the wall

edge and then we can taper it down um so

that we have the same

um that existed. So from the short side

elevations

um we'll be tapering it towards the

front and the long side.

So when you're looking at it from the

endlight

and we feel that's more fitting just so

of the market having exposed decking

And then uh for gutters and down spouts.

So originally we thought before we had

the high res photo of this we thought it

was uh box gutters.

Um um but from this photo we were able

to see that it's just half

gutters. Would they have an aluminum or

copper?

I

think we also think it's hard to tell

from the image, but it looks like they

were painting. Um, and we're paint.

No, just talking here. This edge

that's pretty

You were talking about the

roof and um tapering it where it has the

overhang which makes a lot of sense

except on the end condition when you

have that facial board

still. Will you extend it upward to

compensate or

Oh, even the lower roof. Well, both I

guess the the higher peak

is more out of the view, but you still

have It looks like there's still a

facial board and some brackets, right?

So,

um compensating. Well, how how many

inches different is it?

Still working on that. Yeah, we're still

working on it, but we're trying to get a

an assembly as we

can.

So that's

insulation. We're thinking once we get

down

right on the sides on the long lengths,

but I'm talking about at the peak

there's still board there as well.

Decorative board with brackets, right?

So the roof

overhead spaces as well. So we'll we'll

be able to taper it at that

edge. So so

that good question and I guess all of

the imagery that's included in the

packet and that I've seen don't really

have an a bird's eye view. Uh So we

don't know what kind of roof was there

and if asphalt was there

last

as I'm not sure we

can make demands another type but what

do you given the age of the

building material

certainly wouldn't

I don't I don't

Yeah, I think I'd like to see some more

um typical that same age, what kind of

roofs they might have had.

Um, a metal roof to me sounds right, but

the other building that was

fair was

like

metal.

Right. The wood the wood

building a little bit.

Exit sessions

It doesn't. You can't really tell

either. We have photos from

easier to see because

it's also thought that they were

different enough that it wouldn't

necessarily matter. The other thing that

we might come up against is that if we

we do have a quite a low slope um on the

lower roof. I'm not sure that a modern

standing seam manu

Sure. Barely making jingles

there. It's you'd have to be across the

street like really like we we did some

studies actually standing if you'd be on

like the sidewalk roughly at where the

red one there's no way. Even we're

building up that you even be able to see

where it tapers

like you say.

They do make low slope metal

standings. You might want to look into

that. They don't

always there are criteria, right?

The the stone building.

That's what we were just talking about.

Um, we don't know what was on each roof

and we're just trying to find something

period appropriate

originally. That's what we're trying to

determine.

So that's that's one item of discussion.

Um,

that would be worth investigating

further for our next

gathering. Um, and then let's talk more

about the aluminum clad windows. And I

kind of see the metal roof idea helping

to justify some aluminum clad windows

eventually, but period of the building

wouldn't have had

cladding unless you can tell me

otherwise. But I don't think the age of

the building would have had aluminum and

As a board, we're typically looking at

wood or composite windows.

Um, it's very

well,

my memory doesn't I don't have many

cases in my memory of when we've

approved aluminum flat windows unless

they were

recent building. Yeah, there there have

been a couple um aluminum clad uh

windows. I think one uh that comes to

mind uh is 1718 Green Street. Uh they I

think they use the elevate uh window um

which might have been Marvin I think

does that line. Um so you know the board

now

in that case I believe that was like a

side elevation and maybe even like an

upper floor. So there might have been

the justification touch zone, not on a

primary facade. And obviously, a

building like the Broad Street Market

has many more frontages on the public

rightway. And there's also a higher

priority than a row home uh in the

middle of, you know, some block in in

old uptown. Um and and you know, this

was I did warn the project team. I said,

you know, the windows and the

materiality will probably be one of the

biggest things. Um but uh you know, I

think given the number of windows that

they have up there. And I know in in

some cases when we're talking about a

composite, a wood composite window, uh

that we've heard from several property

owners that you get to a certain size

and and the manufacturers just aren't

making those and maybe you can go

special order these. But um I think we

also in the consideration of everything

that's being proposed as part of this

reconstruction is, you know, what's it

going to cost? Because this is not a

simple this is not a single home. This

is like a really large building and you

know I don't know I don't know myself

where necessarily all the money is

coming from whether this is from the

insurance payout and therefore you know

it's somewhat limited in terms of what

resources we have available um but uh

you know making sure that I think first

and foremost that the building becomes

uh gets back up and running and is

brought code compliant. I know this is

another uh topic of uh issue that the

board has discussed of you know what is

permissible as far as a new alternative

material if the greater interest in the

retention of the building, the longevity

of the building. Um you know making sure

that the property is something that

people are going to want to buy and

invest in and live in in the future is a

consideration

uh for um for the board. Um and you know

I think this in many cases these issues

that might have been uh you know

secondary or even tertiary in some cases

um in other reviews really come to the

four in a in a project like this given

its visibility given its importance you

know um and so yeah I think there is

certainly those questions of well was

that a metal roof do we want to allow

aluminum clad windows Um, and you know,

it's definitely something uh that again

I know the project team has spent a lot

of time investigating and researching

on. Um, and you know, their point about

the the maintenance of it is a good

point because again there's a lot of

windows in these buildings and um if if

it's there have to be wood windows and

we're having to have you know the

facilities uh department go out there

and paint every other year, every third

year. Um, you know, do we have the

capacity to be able to do that? Do we

have the resources to be able to fund

those things on

kind

of

retreated kind of

I would think that we should at least

see some comparison moneywise

to size.

Um and

um kind

of I think what you're

saying yes essential

everything this is our big

show and I'm not sure

this complies on a whole list

material and I do think

it's research

on

some windows to see

if

material and at least be able to show us

due

and I I'm sure um

national secretary of interior standards

will come into play as well. We we

strive to follow. Um so when it talks

about windows there we

may also because of the high

profile situation for this building we

may want I I'm wondering about positive

that's even appropriate. I do understand

the new growth wood is not what the old

growth would lipan right

so yeah windows are always a

complication so we'll have to do some

due diligence reading through the

secretary of interior

standards and don't know if there are

restrictions funding

sources also bring

We

are

certainly but I I'm not

sure and we do have a cost comparison of

what

However, I think it's worth questions

extremely

expensive. I personally I would not

If you

were able to

match this in the

comments and they would all be

Now, going back to the doors, they are

wood doors that you're looking at or are

they plaid? Also,

we're looking to use wood on the

exterior side doing a similar vest

on your interior doors. Okay. We don't

have perview of

but we want to have the true on the

exterior but we have to keep the

envelope. So we're keeping

Okay. So, I think we've reviewed

everything. Um, question.

Yes. Thank you. I was just there on

brick.

Yeah, we're gonna try to

read. There's a whole brick stud we're

doing too. Each brick actually sections

are all different and they're also all

different

brick same way.

First of all, thank you for the word

because I've been a preservation

professional for

almost

that

photo. I'm wondering if you could

They did try.

Yeah, they could try

add one of the things.

Well, all the trains and doors were able

to get in right

Will you go with a traditional limestone

mortar or you going to go with a

type

softer the

bricks and we're doing additional

testing?

Sorry. It's tough to get

foundation. You can see that

moisture almost.

I would think any weak holes are covered

by the concrete sidewalk as well.

So, um, if you're furring out the

interior with stud, I imagine that will

be some sort of plaster drywall to

represent and some insulation. So, are

you putting a big barrier in? Are you

doing spray insulation or you

which is the vapor barrier.

So there's there's two processes right

now investigating. So one of them is you

see the down there. So we're thinking

there might be compromise in the line

once it

gets at the

bottom. Um the other thing we're

studying is the the water level. Um

basically

So we're getting

pricing on

it doesn't make sense to go through this

whole restoration.

Um to my point about the vapor barrier,

old buildings would breathe, right? So

now we're adding this vapor barrier um

to air conditioning as part of the HVAC.

Um so that makes me

think obviously we need a vapor barrier

so that we don't destroy the

brick cause other issues but um HVAC

is something that we don't always get to

see before it's applied to a building.

So, where and how are you planning

to where are you putting the equipment?

Where are you putting the

chiller rooftop units or whatever?

We're still

working. Um, we have a central central

plaz

that both stone building

you don't have any boiler

mechanical room in this this building or

in the stone building. Correct.

So you'd have some sort of access way in

the plaza. Yes.

Bricks or whatever happens, right?

There's also in your picture some

electrical equipment. Looks like that's

nice to clean up some of inevitable

spaghetti. So I like the underground

approach for that as well. If we can

create some sort of confident

Are you doing anything? Um, are any of

those exterior 1990s tables around the

perimeter of the brick

building? I know they're in front of the

stone. They are.

Do you have any plans for those?

stone on the outside of around the

perimeter. Um, pretty much at the curb

line of the sidewalk, there's uh some

posts with tables that were intended to

give you, you know, the the thing that

happened inevitably was in the in the I

think so in the plaza people have set

set up um tents and tables but those

were intended to be able to be pulled

out and used without bringing your own

table

I've never I've never seen them in Yeah.

I don't know that it's a feature.

Although I'm curious to find out what my

my guess is that I've always thought

about this too is my guess is it was

probably supposed to replicate when

there were wooden extensions on the

outside of the building. Um and there

were stands I think in the almost like a

modern equivalent of of that was

obviously uncovered and you know

unencloed but it was kind of intended to

replicate the activity that would occur

on the sides of the boat.

last major renovation.

So next month you'll also talk more

about the second phase and third

potential phase.

Um, so what can you talk to us about a a

little bit about how you're approaching

the construction of the project?

You're doing just the brick

building initially, right?

In May, I think we were still only

focused on the brick building because

that's piece that everyone wants to see

expedited and completed. Um,

We're still knocking out what

exactly are you

I think we would probably pick one of

those,

but we were only

able colors.

When you go with the insulated glass

windows, it looks like in this picture

there

At first,

sorry,

but you're not because you have

insulated glass, you won't need any

storms.

DC

heat in the winter.

[Music]

lockable.

Yeah, I don't there there are several

double hungs on the ground.

So when they are fixed double hung do

they have the offset?

Yes, they basically just

like they

just so I really don't think

it's made. It's really more

functionality

issue. If

particular vendor that's near a window

goes and opens it and then the AC's

running there's going to

be

there that's not

This is David Baker. He's our facilities

manager.

Seems like

so for

ventilation and air change. Do you need

any lers?

Well, we don't know where the equipment

is yet, so you don't know if you're

going to need loopers. But if you

propose putting one of making one of

these openings into a looper, I think we

would want to know that

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I

appreciate the attention to detail on

this landmark building for us in

Harrisburg. And I'm really happy to be

here tonight and to see movement on the

project as

well.

Been eagerly

waiting. I think you heard from some of

team testimony. There's a lot of

research that

way analyzing samples. Um this was not I

think show up and say okay we're going

to do this this and this. It's like

understand the building to

understand life and

building doesn't seem to me that uh from

my conversation our discussions I can

see notions about how this was supposed

to be

done analysis of the actual building. I

think a lot of what you heard here is a

response to what they found

investigator.

Should I open the floor? Comments from

the public? David, anybody?

You're both David. So,

all right. Well, then I guess I have to

take a motion for adjournment. I'll make

a motion to adjurnn. Second. All those

in favor say I. I. Motion carries. Thank

you for your time. Thank you.