Harrisburg City Council - Work Session 11/3/2025

Present.

>> Miss Green.

>> Mr. Jones.

>> Here.

>> Miss RWS.

>> Here.

>> Mr. Rodriguez.

>> Present.

>> Miss Hill.

>> Present.

We have quite an agenda this evening.

So, I'd like to get started since we

were delayed. We will begin with the

work of the administration committee. We

have one resolution for discussion.

Resolution 79 of 2025. Mr. Humphrey,

would you please read it into the

record? Resolution 79 of 2025, a

resolution accepting the offer from the

Pennsylvania Department of

Transportation in the amount of $11,000

in just compensation for the acquisition

of a portion of real property identified

as tax parcel number 63-024-051

and necessary easements for the I83

widening project.

>> Thank you. Um, who from the

administration is present to discuss

resolution 79?

Good evening.

>> Good evening. If you wouldn't mind

providing a brief overview of resolution

79, please.

>> Sure. So, this resolution is um

kind of came about due to PEDOT's I83

widening project coming through our area

as part of the widening.

They are uh they need land and easements

along the corridor. And this just

happened to be an odd scenario where the

city has property outside the city

limits. Um to maybe better describe

where uh the land is is

If you're heading out Paxton Street out

of the city, go past 29th and 32nd

Street, the next left, City Park Drive.

Uh the city does have land back in that

area. And that is where [clears throat]

uh Pendot is asking that we provide land

as well as

permanent and temporary construction

easements.

>> Okay. and and I can at least provide

some of the background because this has

gone on a long time. Um, this is the

second uh piece of land that has been

acquired by PennDOT for the 83 project

from the city of Harrisburg. Uh, when we

say acquired, if we didn't say yes at

some point, they would just take it

anyway. Um the city had attempted and

had uh to get the the property

separately appraised and because of it

was an odd nature the appraisals were

going to be very expensive. Um and then

Pendot was good enough to provide us an

abbreviation of their appraisal which

showed that their price was a fair

price. Um so then with that the mayor

then agreed to have it come down for

council. Um but but we we we've been

trying to figure out how to appraise.

It's sort of an odd piece of land. Um

and it it involved a lot of issues that

would make it expensive for someone to

make a comparison or to find a

comparison uh to the piece of land. Um

so eventually that is how the number was

deemed acceptable. Um and so other if we

did not have an agreement of course they

would have to proceed with eminent

domain and there's no point for

taxpayers to pay for the two sides of

that type of uh event.

Any

further commentary on the resolution

before I open the floor for questions

from my colleagues?

>> I don't have anything.

>> Okay. Thank you. Um I'd like to begin

with uh Councilman Rodriguez, our public

works committee chair.

>> Thank you, Madam President, and uh Mr.

Cider. Always good seeing you. Um I

mean, sounds and appears pretty cut and

dry. I'd rather get, you know, the 101

instead of intimate doain. We just never

know what that would bring about. So, um

I definitely see it as a benefit to the

city. So, I I have no questions, but I

mean I see it as essential. So, thank

you.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones. Any

questions?

>> Uh yeah, President Hill. So, um Mr.

Grover, so when you say the second

piece, are we talking about 17th and

Paxton first? That piece of land there

that

>> it's the piece of land that's the back

door of the public works building.

First, we had taken it by eminent domain

and then Pendot took a piece of it from

us.

>> Well, I'm talking about the first the

first part that we sold I think for like

400,000 right there on 17th in Paxton

where they're going to be using the

expansion. You know what I'm talking

about?

>> Those houses that caught on fire right

there.

>> I know they I'm not aware of the

agreement.

>> I'm not aware of it being an eminent

domain with us.

>> Not imminent domain. I think when you

said that we uh they acquired other

other property, I was thinking that was

one of them cuz I think they purchased

that land too,

>> but I think not from us. So at 19th and

Paxton, which is where the public works

corner is.

>> That's you in the back.

>> If you go behind the building, we had

taken all the way back to where the

highway is now going to be. And we had a

we had a a temporary sort of we used to

call it a

cloth building. It wasn't really cloth

that which they had to move, but they

acquired all of that. and up where there

was a billboard there. They acquired all

that land and that just placing made it

shorter in the back for us. So, so it

would made it more essential we tear

down the 19th Street buildings because

and relocate the other one. So, that's

the piece that they took back in 2021

2022 they finalized it.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. So, I'm saying but I'm saying but

but 17th Street I'm not sure I'm not

sure what you're talking about. that

piece that you're talking about behind

public works.

Um I know what we went through with

Briner

>> that wasn't attached to it or was it?

>> No. So the way it works is the minute we

took it from Brener we owned it and then

the question was was it a fair price? So

we've owned it since 2019. Somewhere

after 2019, Pendot said, "By the way, we

need a piece of that and came along and

took a piece of that and we had an

agreement that this council approved for

the price for that as well."

>> So, um other than the financial burden

that would be placed amongst uh the

taxpayers um so there was no other um

way that you can assess or is it time

consuming because of the project and the

need for demand?

>> It's also expensive. When an appraiser

can't do a ready read a read a readily

available comparator for real estate, it

gets much more expensive. We do and

share in tax assessment appeal

appraisals all the time with the school

district and the county and some of

those are 10 or 12 or $15,000 a piece

upfront and then if you need them to

testify they charge all over again. So

it's an it can for what it was for the

value of the land that's a pretty big

percentage to put on the table. Uh but

the one we went to basically after

looking said we just can't do this one

and we had to look elsewhere and at that

point it wasn't worth continuing to

invest um for what it was. The fact

>> I'm just curious though the that the

number that you came up with

>> that Pendot came up with they gave us

their appraisal number which the first

time they didn't give us an appraisal

number. Pendot usually doesn't give out

their appraisals but in order to make

this close

>> they wrote their own check. No, no. This

well they the law does not require in

eminent domain that that the government

automatically give out their appraisals.

>> Okay.

>> So, um which so it's not uncommon. So,

but so the first time around they

weren't sharing it. This time around

they closed the deal. They gave us what

I would call an executive summary of

their appraisal.

>> Okay. So, no further questions.

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Ross. Any

questions?

>> Uh good evening. Um, I don't have any

questions. Um, I think most of mine were

answered by um, what Councilman Jones

asked, so I'm fine. Thank you.

>> Thank you, [clears throat] Councilwoman

Davis. Any questions?

>> Thank you, President Hill. Thank you.

Good evening, Mr. Ciders. No, it's um,

pretty clear cut to me. Um, I think it's

a generous amount for a piece of land

that we can't use anyway behind the the

land behind the public works building.

Can we

>> No, that was the first piece of land.

This is This is a second piece of land

that's outside the city that is

essentially a gravel lot right now. So,

>> okay. All right. But no, it's pretty

much clearcut to me. I think I agree.

>> Thank you. Um, if there's no further

discussion, I move to add resolution 79

of 2025 to our next legislative session

agenda for a formal vote. This concludes

the business of the administration

committee. Thank you.

If you're following along on our meeting

agenda, I'd like to move to the work of

the public safety committee next. Um, I

will defer to our public safety

committee chair, Councilman Jones, to

lead discussion.

>> Um, I would like to remind everyone to

please speak into the microphone, pull

it very close to you so that those

listening are able to hear you. Thank

you, Councilman Jones. Thank you,

President Hill. I thought I seen the

police I mean the fire chief here. Maybe

he stepped out on us. Oh, there he is.

Chief and I, how are you, sir?

>> Good.

I was about to call you Mr. Trude.

Mr. Humphrey, can you read uh resolution

77

and 78 of 2025 into the record, please?

Resolution 77 of 2025, a resolution

authorizing the city of Harrisburg to

negotiate and enter into a professional

services agreement with SGS Architects

Engineers Incorporated to provide

architectural services for renovation of

the bedroom and restroom facilities at

Fire Station 2 located at 140 North 16th

Street.

Resolution 78 of 2025, a resolution

ratifying an agreement with Locality

Media Incorporated, doing business as

first due for the implementation of

software for the city of Harrisburg Fire

Bureau and authorizing the city to

negotiate and enter into a 5-year

renewal agreement for such services.

>> Thank you, Chief Enderline. Uh, how are

you to do, sir?

>> I'm well. [snorts]

>> All right. We're going to start with

resolution 77 of 2025. Can you just

please give uh I know it may sound

simple to us. However, for the

community's edification, can you um just

give a little detail on that and then

I'll get to my questions.

>> Sure. This is a uh architectural firm

that we would like to hire to design uh

for the rebuild of fire station 2 at uh

140 North 16 Streets, the Allison Hill

Fire Station. Uh this station has not

had major repairs to the bedroom or

bathroom facilities since it was built

in 1980. Uh I'm getting a lot of echo

here. So uh we've uh we want to employ

them. We're looking to the bedroom

facility as it currently is is an open

bedroom facility with Murphy bed. So

they essentially fold into the wall uh

and there's no privacy. The uh bathroom

facilities are still uh well they're

falling apart, but they're in the old

orange uh of the 1980s. The uh dividers

and everything are uh you know falling

apart. And then as well as the shower is

a uh open shower. So there's about I

think there's six showerheads in there

with uh no privacy there as well. So our

goal was to hire an architect that had u

a lot of experience designing uh fire

stations uh because of the uniqueness of

the operation from uh you know the bunk

room and the you know and the showers to

the the ability to store uh with lockers

and things like that in that tight space

that we have.

>> All right. Good. So, this is the company

um that you uh SGS, correct?

>> Correct. Yes. Yep. Out of uh Carlile.

>> And they've been just about as long as

this building's been up, right? Since

1985,

>> uh I believe so. Somewhere around there.

Yeah. They've done a lot of fire station

remodels uh here in central

Pennsylvania.

>> Yeah, I saw their um you know, in the

resolution. But um I I just want to

share for the record that I have uh

visited that station and did see the

conditions of it. I didn't realize you

answered one of my first question was

how long has it been since this station

has been uh renovated or updated and I

didn't know it hasn't been touched since

it was been built.

>> Yeah. So under the uh since I came

downtown here in 2014 uh we've

recognized and identified a lot of

deficiencies in the fire department. Uh

and some of those needed to be addressed

sooner than others. So the HVAC systems,

the roofing systems uh and some other

things like that. the the kitchens were

absolutely deplorable. Uh this was one

of those we just kept putting off till

we got the funding. So we got the

funding lined up in in this year's

budget and we were awarded a grant of

$83,475

uh from the Commonwealth uh to assist

with with this project.

>> All right, I want you to slow down. You

just answered all my questions.

>> That's good. That's good. I can read

you,

>> right? [laughter] All my questions. One

of them, why station two versus all the

others? you just kind of gave a

explanation. Um do you plan to update

any of the other ones at some point?

>> So yeah, our plan uh obviously you

haven't received the budget yet, but um

we have budgeted to also replace and do

the exact same project at station one

for next year. Um and there the the fire

stations are built on the same

blueprints. So this will be a turnkey

operation for both fire stations u when

we you know when we go to put it out the

bid. So, um, we're hopeful to get

station two or station one done next

year. And then, uh, the volunteer at the

Mount Pleasant at 9 South 13th Street.

We've been pumping, uh, state grant

funds, uh, to the tune of $15,000 a year

for about the last eight years, uh, into

the remodel of that fire station. Uh,

culminating, uh, just with this year's,

u, uh, aotment from the Mount Pleasant,

uh, we repainted uh, the bedroom, the

uh, bathrooms, and the kitchen up there.

>> Okay. And man, this I don't have any

work to do. I mean, just answering all

my stuff. Um,

yeah. So, the other thing is the

timeline for station two. So, uh, they

put together a pretty aggressive

timeline. Uh, upon award, I think it's,

uh, looks like about 25 weeks till we go

to, uh, till we go to bid. So, and no,

I'm sorry, actually 17 weeks. Um, so

they're anticipating about uh

14- 15 weeks worth of work uh to go out

there, get all the measurements, and

then start the design. And obviously, we

want our firefighters to be involved in

that design as well. So, we'll be

bouncing that off of them uh to make

sure it's fitting the bill that they're

looking for as well. They're the ones

that are, you know, literally living in

the fire station.

>> Okay. And um there was other ones. Uh

you said if you can again for me um why

station two over all of them? I think

this is is this the first one built or

>> No, they were station one and two were

built at the same time. Uh we just

picked station two because it's probably

in the worst condition.

>> Figured as much. All right, I'll open up

the floor for resolution 75 77 of 2025.

I'll start to my immediate right.

Councilman Rodriguez.

>> Thank you, Chair Jones. Chief, it's

always a blessing seeing you. Um,

pretty pretty much a no-brainer for me

uh with this one as well. I mean, I know

the work you guys do. I've been in rooms

and seen your team get up as soon as

that bell gone. I mean, the thrill of

seeing that. I wish we could accommodate

with everything brand new. So, apparatus

is safe, the, you know, volunteers are

safe, the firefighters are safe. Um, but

maybe that's pie in the sky later on

down the road. But anyway, um, I can

support with this. So definitely uh see

the value in it and bringing everything

up to date. So thank you for being here.

>> We we appreciate we're definitely making

strides and we couldn't do it without

council's approval. So we appreciate it.

>> Councilwoman Ross.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones, and good

evening, Chief Enerline. Thank you for

being here tonight to explain um

resolution 77 and 78 to us. I just had

one question and I'm sorry if you

answered it. I did hear grants we were

going to re we received about what

83,000 you said.

>> Correct.

>> Okay. How much is the total cost? I

didn't see it in here. It just went fast

past me too fast. Why is I4?

>> Well, that it was 54.

>> So, yeah, that sounded so small.

>> That's for the architectural

design.

>> Okay.

>> We don't know what construction will be

because it'll have to go out to bid,

>> right? Okay. Thank you. I did see the

54,000 and I was like, I don't It just

sounded a little

>> Yeah. and their their bid also their

proposal also includes construction

management to CNM which is typically not

uh okay

>> typically not part of that and they they

included it in everybody else that we

worked with

>> uh or looked at uh that was an

additional fee um that we would have had

it added on. So

>> Okay, thank you. And my last question

would be, will you all be trying to go

after any more grants or or are we going

to uh the city budget is going to fill

in the gaps of what you may need to

finish the project for station one and

two?

>> So, uh, station two, particularly this

project, we have the 83,000 grant and

then we also have u 2025

general fund dollars uh allocated for

this. the 2026, we will again apply for

the exact same grant in hopes of of

receiving another grant. Uh and then

also asking for additional funding from

uh council in our general appropriation

uh which we hope um we'll be able to

offset with our capital fire protection

uh that we'll receive whenever the state

budget is passed.

>> Yeah. Right.

Thank you. I'll pass it along on that

note.

>> That's it for me.

>> Okay.

President Hill,

>> thank you.

Um, many of my questions were asked and

answered. I just wanted to review the

timeline. It looks like the span will be

about 48 weeks. That's the estimate.

>> I just had that page and I apologize.

>> Oh, you're fine. I just wanted to

>> What did I say? 14 weeks.

Okay.

uh

>> if 14 to 16 weeks for design.

>> Okay.

>> And then uh after that uh it'll go out

for bid and then we we won't have a good

idea until the bids are awarded on what

that contract completion date will be

from the general contractor.

>> Okay. Thank you. I don't have any other

questions.

>> Councilwoman Davis.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones. Good

evening, Chief.

>> Good evening. How are you? Good. Thank

you. Uh thank you for your service uh to

you and all the other firemen.

You mentioned that 54,000 is going to be

spent for the architectural work. Okay.

So, is there any chance that any of that

money could be left over to go towards

one of the other fire departments?

>> No. The So, the contract with SGS is for

the the full amount. Um, and that's

that's what'll be required to complete

this particular project, I believe. And

we haven't talked to them because I

didn't want to taint uh any further uh

processes for station one, but I believe

we'll be able to use the exact same

design for station one. We would just

end up paying for the construction

management at that point.

>> Okay. So, I meant 83,000 is the total

grant, but then the architectural work

is going to cost about 54,000. the

remaining money. Do you did you say that

it's going to be able to go into that

same firehouse?

>> Yes. So, we we have we have I believe it

was $250,000

uh in our general fund budget uh plus

the $83,000

to to complete the work. 54,000 of that

for this architectural firm will come

out of the 250 that was budgeted uh in

the 2025 budget. And then the remainder

of that, the 83,000 and whatever's left,

190,000

uh is what our budget will be for the uh

for the construction then.

>> Okay. And then you mentioned that

there's some painting and different

things going on um at the fire

department on 13th Street.

>> Am I correct? Correct. Okay. What do you

foresee for the future for that?

Additionally,

>> uh, so we just applied for the

volunteer, the Mount Pleasant Fire

Company just applied for another $15,000

from the Commonwealth. So that, uh,

money is also going to be earmarked for

station renovations as well, completing

the basement renovation. Um, and then we

have some a couple of windows that need

replaced and some other things. So

that's that station has had uh you in

the last 10 years over $100,000 of

volunteer fire company money uh put into

it plus uh the amount that we put in for

HVAC. We put a a generator in that

station never had a generator. We put a

fire alarm system that that station

never had a fire alarm system in. So we

pumped a lot of money into that station

as well.

>> Okay. Thank you. That's it for me.

>> All right. [clears throat] Excuse me.

Uh, moving on to resolution 78 of 2025

and Mr. Inline, it was already read into

the the record. So, can you give a brief

overview of what we're doing with this

resolution?

>> Sure. This resolution is a contract with

a uh vendor for our fire reporting

software. So, the reports that you get

from the fire bureau, all that

information comes from this reporting

software. We use this for scheduling,

for overtime call out. We use it for uh

building management. So when we look at

uh inspections and things like that uh

as well as our incident uh

recordkeeping. So anytime that there's

an incident all that information is put

in there to generate a fire report. Uh

and then all of our training records are

also documented and kept in there. And

our plan is in 2026 to start to use that

for our um looking at it to track all of

our apparatus and equipment expenditures

as well.

>> Okay, great. Now, [clears throat]

similar to um resolution 77, um so I

didn't ask these questions. I wanted to

wait for this one, but uh how long have

we been with this company? I see that

this is a renewal. So, how long we have

been with them?

>> I want to say we've been with them about

three years now. Two to three years. And

we had when we first brought them on, we

were using a different reporting

software. Uh and there was a change at

the state level and we were looking for

a vendor that was able to support uh

going from and not to get too far into

weeds but going from the current

reporting system at the federal level to

what is coming out starting in 2026 for

us called nearest uh which is a a new

platform. uh this vendor uh was able to

seamlessly transition all that stuff in.

Uh and it also uh there's also a bridge

so that it works with with the Dolphin

County CAD system, the computer aated

dispatch system so that those calls that

are dispatched, we have terminals in in

the apparatus. It's able to go out to

kind of put there's three different

pieces, right? There's a terminal in the

in the apparatus. uh the the county

sends the call to the terminal and on

the way it also brings in the

information that we may have for that

building uh in our database as well. So

it all comes together. That way if

there's any hazardous materials or

anything hazardous about the building,

anything that we have picked out um you

know location of a Knox box, a fire

department connection, stair towers,

things like that, that all goes right to

the uh to that terminal in the fire

truck then.

>> Okay. Um, now the million-doll question,

what $124,000

question, that's what we're spending on

this, right?

>> Correct. And that's over five years. Um,

and it it just made sense for us to lock

in a five-year term. Uh, these these

software as a service vendors um they

sporadically change their u their

pricing structures when the longer you

lock in, the better price you get. And

you know, it's not uncommon to see a 20

or 30% spike uh certain years depending

on what they bring out. when we lock in

that contract, we're locked in for that

price over that five-year term.

>> Okay. And the next question would be,

again, just [clears throat] wanted to

put the amount out there so our resident

can know what we're spending, how much

we're spending, and what we're spending

it on. Um, so the obvious next question

would be um how are we paying for this?

Is this grant money? Are we are this

budgeted money? Th

>> this is budgeted general fund money out

of our software uh our software line

item.

>> All right. No further questions this

time. I'll start to my far right and

start with Councilwoman Davis.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones. Thank you

again, Chief Eterine. Uh thank you for

the

budget over five years considering the

taxpayers's dollars and realizing that

the rate's going to pretty much stay the

same over that five years. I think

that's important. Thank you. That's it

for me.

>> Thank you,

>> Councilwoman Daniels.

Um, no questions.

>> President Hill.

>> I don't have any questions. Thank you,

>> Councilwoman Ross.

Never mind. Thank you. Um, I don't have

any questions. I was just going to share

with residents. Um, there was like a

timeline of what was going to be paid

each year. So, they knew I know they

know the total is $123,731.32.

Um, but I was just going to share with

them the timeline for and what's paid um

throughout the year. So, if I say

something wrong, let me know. It was on

page six.

>> Page page seven, I think, outlines it

all.

>> Mhm. Mine is six, but I

>> Oh, I'm sorry. It starts on page six.

Yes.

>> Okay. I'll make sure I was right. So,

um, year 1, which will start uh November

1st to uh it says October 31st. Well,

November 1st of 2024 to October 31st of

2025. That was the first payment,

>> correct?

>> Okay. So, that was $22,392.225.

Then year 2, which is um November 1st of

this year to October 31st of 2026, is

$23,511.86.

Then year three which will be again

November 1st 2026 to then October 31st

2027 is $24,68746

and year 4 which is November 1st 2027 to

October 31st 2028 is $25,92183

and then year five uh which is November

1st 2028 to October Otober 31st, 2029 is

$27,217.92.

Just so they can see, as you said,

they'll lock in, you get the better

price. I do see it went up a little bit

each year, which things normally do, but

I just wanted them to see that it wasn't

a huge jump because, as you said, if you

lock in longer, you get a better price.

>> Correct. Yep.

>> I just wanted to let the public know

that. So, thank you for indulging me for

a moment. That's it for me.

>> We appreciate that you read it. Yeah,

you're welcome.

We do read on council. Thank you. Yes,

that's it for me,

>> Councilman Rodriguez. Uh, no questions

for me. Thank you.

>> All right. Thank you, Chief Enerline.

That will conclude the work session of

the public safety committee. And I would

ask that resolution 77 and 78 of 2025 be

moved to our next legis legislative

session. And I would ask my colleagues

to support both.

>> Thank you, sir.

>> Thank you, President Hill. Thank you,

Councilman Jones.

While we're here, we will move to the

public works committee. Uh, I will defer

to our public works committee chair,

Councilman Rodriguez, to lead

discussion.

>> Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Humphre,

can you please read Resolution 72 of

2025 into the record? Resolution 72 of

2025, a resolution authorizing the city

of Harrisburg to negotiate and enter

into an intergovernmental cooperation

agreement with the bureau of Paxane for

the purpose of authorizing the city to

provide municipal solid waste and

recycling collection and disposal

services within the burough.

>> Thank you for that. And I do see

Director West with us. How you doing?

Good evening.

>> Good evening, Captain.

>> Um, can you give us an overview uh of

resolution 72 of 2025, please?

>> Yes. Resolution 72 involves um renewing

the contract with uh

>> Can you speak a little closer into the

mic?

>> Resolution 72 involves renewing the

contract with uh Pakistan Burrow because

the contract ends the 31st of December

of this year. We want to move into uh

contract for the next three to five

years.

>> So pretty standard work we've already

been doing. We're just pretty much uh

furthering the contract, updating

everything. We've already been working

in um the Paxtank Burrow, correct?

>> Yes, we've been working there for this

would be five years. Years ago,

>> I went to the council meeting with

Paxtank Burough. The council members

saying that the residents are ecstatic

about the work that the city of

Harrisburg does and would love to

continue on in the for the next 3 to

five years. Um, were there any

complications that you uh saw um as

director of public works from the

previous five years of work we've done

with them?

>> Well, we had to um they have uh so much

yard waste that instead of doing it uh

though once every other week, we had to

send out uh two different trucks.

>> Okay. And we have the equipment to do

that and the manpower because if we had

to do it for any of the burrows that uh

that we have taken on that we will we

will go above and beyond to exceed to do

anything that we have to do to

accomplish the goal when it comes to

sanitation.

>> But nothing our team couldn't handle. We

have the compliment. We have the uh

equipment. Nothing uh that we couldn't

handle as far as the packs tang borrow.

>> Not at us. We we adjust to the need.

>> Okay, perfect. Um, pretty

straightforward to me. I'll start with

my immediate left, Councilman Jones.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez, but I

think Solicitor Grover has something.

>> Also, I was going to say there was there

was quite a bit of discussion about the

terms and essentially when it's circled

all the way back, it's the exact same

terms just with increased pricing over

the five years. So, it's a three-year

contract with two one-year renewals.

They renewed both years we had for the

first five. Um but I think there was

some real discussion if there was

anything to change and I think everyone

realized not really. So

>> thank you. Okay. Um my question again u

for the public edification simply um how

is the city benefiting from this

intergovernmental relationship our

agreement with this bureau or any other

ones that we're letting our uh city

workers equipment go in other places to

uh pick up trash? How what's the benefit

to the city of Harrisburg?

>> Well, one of the benefits is a

cooperation with the entities of central

Pennsylvania. When when you start in a

governmental agreements, it can expand

from one department to another. And when

you're working together, just like

working in a community, the expansion

continues to grows to help each other in

other areas. The relationship is more

important than anything. And also with

uh taking on the burrows and picking up

the solid waste and recycling in the

burrows that we are able to uh purchase

some or more of our equipment which is

the sanitation backers without the

residents of the city of Harrisburg

the whole chunk of the you know the

purchase and

>> so there is money coming in from these

barrels.

>> Yes.

Yes.

>> All right. So, the other question would

be um I look at you know and maybe yeah

this is I think this is a great time to

ask this question. Maybe the solicitor

you are the business administrator could

answer this question. um looking at the

report in uh act 47 where we look at

what a put out and one of the reports is

the 90 the 90% of uh uh collection rate

to actually help us move out looking at

the deficit of the $14 million that

that's been all around in the news. Um

does any of these burrows uh are they a

part of any of that deficit or is this

just city? No, the um the burrows Paxang

and Pemrook pay us from the burrow

themselves. We have uh no billing with

the residents. Stilton has a 90

percentile rate of uh paying for their

refuge. The cost of the $14,000 is

basically City of Harrisburg if I'm not

if I'm incorrect.

>> 14 million. [clears throat]

>> 14 million. I'm sorry.

>> Yeah. Uh, incorrect solicitor, you can

know.

>> I don't know what $14 million we're

referring to.

>> Well, that's been in the news. And I'm

sure you saw the report uh um with with

the A um what their recommendation for

our five-year financial plan moving

forward. And one of the big numbers that

stuck out was the 95 or the 90%

collection rate for uh sanitation.

>> I got you. But some of that I know Oh,

no. You're talking about the actual 14

is the city's number,

>> right? And I was just

>> I will say again it's not real but

that's the thing.

>> Um you know

>> we were just discussing that. Uh however

this these questions are just making

sure that the the public understands

what's happening here. Um and making

sure that we're not just using again our

tax dollars going in other burrows

without anything really coming back into

the city. And I just wanted to make sure

that they understood that. So that's

all. So I do I do think since there is

history about the trash system and it

was going to be outsourced under the

receiver and that c this council at the

time voted that down and it would

recognize that that the jobs in public

works are very good jobs for people live

in Harrisburg for them and their

families and uh Mr. West was the deputy

at the time and Mr. Johnson was the

director, thought these were good, solid

ways to to to stabilize questions about

those jobs staying in the city. So, this

contributes to those families continuing

to have a living and benefits and all

that with with with it's always

questionable when when trash rates go up

or down, when work goes up or down and

it's allowed the public works to really

fully serve the public and it just adds

to the stabilization. And I think in

2014, every trash truck we had was

leaking, [snorts] right? We had to

rebuild a fleet from scratch and uh and

all of these steps let that happen in

the city. Um and I think Mr. West has

done a tremendous job in managing that

and bringing that back.

>> Thank you.

>> Absolutely.

>> Yeah. Again, that was just again for uh

the public's edification so they they

can follow what's happening. And again,

uh thank you for your service. No

further questions.

>> Thank you for that. Uh, plus that I

guess that would just be a testament to

how great our public works team is.

Being able to go into different uh,

burrows, municipalities, and actually

execute work, getting contracts,

bringing funds back into the city. I

think that would be a benefit to the

city. So, definitely hats off um,

Councilwoman Ross.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Um, I

don't Is this okay, it didn't sound like

it was on. Uh, I don't have any

questions, but I did have the one as the

same as Councilman Jones, just about

what um that deficit included with the

14 million that's been talked about, but

you answered it um, Solicer Grover,

because I know a lot of residents were

wondering, was that other burrows

included or just Harrisburg? Um, it it

was just a legitimate concern, but um,

you know, I'm glad that we are not

outsourcing our public works department.

It brings essential jobs to our city and

um it it's important. So, um I don't I

don't have any questions. This is for me

a no-brainer. Um we're making

connections with other burrows. We're

we're giving a service to other burrows.

Um it just goes to a testament on how

great Harrisburg's public work system

is. So, that's it for me.

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> Thank you for all the work you do,

Director West. You're welcome.

>> Madam President,

>> good evening. I don't have any

questions. Thank you for your work and

I'm glad to hear that uh the residents

of the burrow are really happy with the

work that public works is doing. So,

thank you.

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Davis.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Thank

you, Director West. And thank you for

all you do and for going above and

beyond the call of duty to help our

residents.

>> Thank you. That's what we do.

Councilwoman Daniels.

Councilwoman Daniels.

>> Hello.

>> Any questions regarding resolution 72 of

2025? Mr. West is here.

Um, so I thought I was Can you guys hear

me?

>> Yes, ma'am.

>> Okay. I was asking what was the total

value of the contract?

>> The total of the contract.

>> The total value of the contract? Yes.

>> I would have to get that information to

you. I don't have it currently.

Okay.

>> Do you know like what it was for last

year?

What was the

>> I guess solicitor Grover is looking it

up.

>> We we can get you a complete number.

Basically, there was percentage increase

that was negotiated for both a monthly

and annual basis that from the from the

last of the five years that we had. Each

year it goes up previously and each year

in the future it goes up. But that just

speaks to the contract, not to the total

dollars collected. And we can reach out

to public works and finance and get the

council the answer to that number by

Monday. So, director West, that's

something we can expedite over to

council.

>> Oh, yes, definitely.

>> Awesome. Um, is there anything else

you'd like to add uh regarding

resolution 72 of 2025?

>> Was there any other question? Yeah, just

a just a comment that you know once we

started to enter these cooperative

agreements which on the one hand seemed

pretty efficient was also the time when

we stopped being able to service the

encampments um which then ballooned into

major public safety problems and now are

costing us in terms of relocation and

you know and all of that stuff. So, I

would like the administration to think

holistically about what these contracts

are worth and whether we're getting a

value for it because, you know, it's not

the city that paid for the the new lot

for uh the new homeless encampment, it

does the county, but that's still tax

money that could have gone to something

else for the residents in the city. So,

it's just that comment.

>> Thank you for that. Anything else you'd

like to add, Councilwoman Daniels?

All right. Um, director West,

>> if I may understand,

>> Councilwoman Daniels stated that

sanitation has something to do with the

homeless encampment.

>> Encampment, I believe. So, was that your

question? Uh, Councilwoman Daniels,

>> you had stopped the services at the

encampment. I I'll just if she if mind

re uh Councilwoman Daniels

>> she still

>> Are you guys having trouble hearing me?

>> No. Um Director West just wanted to know

if you could uh ask your question again

please

>> regarding sometimes it's breaking up on

my end too.

>> No we can hear.

>> No it wasn't a question. It was a

comment that once we started to enter

these cooperative agreements, we weren't

able to keep up with the sanitation uh

services we provided to the homeless

encampments which then resulted in the

ballooning of those sanitation issues in

those areas. Now we're paying to for the

relocation of folks. And even though the

tax money that's being used to fund the

new placements is coming from the county

and not the city, those are tax dollars

that could have gone to other services

in the city. So what I was just

commenting is that it would be great for

the administration to think more

holistically about what the value of

these contracts are as they're

negotiating them. So it was a comment,

not a question.

>> Okay. For the record, the sanitation

department, the sanitation um the trash

never ceased being picked up at the

encampments. Not only did we pick the

trash up at the encampments, we had the

trash cans set at each encampment. We

also had a highway department with the

clam truck and triacle trucks to pick up

trash at the encampment. We picked it up

three times a week. We even had

relationships with the homeless people

that was at the encampment to place the

trash in a certain area so we could pick

it up for at one pile so that um the

trash never ceased to be picked up from

uh public works department. And just to

add to that, Councilwoman Daniels, we

actually currently have a partnership

with the Miracle for Shore Miracle

Community where we are assisting with

the pickup of the recycle uh and trash.

>> All right. Um, anything else you'd like

to add, Director West, to that? We just

like to continue to

uh prosper in the relationships with the

intergovernmental agreements with the

burrows uh around us to form um to take

a lead on the intergovernmental

relationships with other departments as

well as police and fire and codes so

forth and so on to develop these

relationships because our strength we

find are in the numbers as us working

together.

>> Absolutely. Um, anything else from my

colleagues on council?

>> All right. Um, well, I move to add

resolution 72 2025 to our next

legislative uh session. And that

concludes the work for the public works

committee. Um, back to you, Madam

President.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Our

final committee business this evening

lies with the Community and Economic

Development Committee. I will defer to

our community and economic development

committee chair, Councilwoman Daniels,

to lead discussion.

>> Thank you so much. And President Hill,

in case I start breaking up and you guys

are having trouble hearing me, feel free

to like interrupt and take over. Um so

the community and economic development

committee meeting um we have

sorry

um the first item of business is uh

resolution 73 2025. Um Mr. Humphre could

you read that into the record please?

Resolution 73 of 2025, a resolution

approving the preliminary final

development plan for 2601 North Third

Street to convert the northernmost

building on site into a multifamily

dwelling along with associated site and

access improvements.

>> Thank you. So, um could someone from the

administration come up and give us a

brief um explanation of the project and

um any timelines, any conditions, etc.?

>> Uh sure. So, uh Jeffrey Knight, planning

director with the city of Harrisburg. Um

so, the uh resolution for tonight uh as

uh was noted uh is for uh 2601 North

Third Street. Uh this is for the former

poly clinic uh hospital and specifically

for the northernmost building on that

campus which was previously a nurse's

quarters. Um council may remember this

project uh had a couple other

applications come through. One for a

zoning map amendment to convert the

property uh or to change the designation

from the institutional designation to

the commercial neighborhood designation.

And there was also a subdivision

application uh that was submitted

concurrently with that. Uh so this is

kind of the next step in uh the overall

development proposal for this site and

as noted it's the um proposed

redevelopment of the northernmost

building which the applicants have

labeled uh building number three. Um the

proposal is uh uh will convert the

property into or the structure into a 96

unit multif family dwelling uh with uh

potential commercial community space

being reserved for uh the floor first

floor adjacent to the building arcade

and courtyard. Uh the project um units

will uh range in a variety of sizes and

configurations uh from studios to

three-bedroom apartments and from 450 ft

uh to 1154 square ft. Um as noted uh

this is the first of um three

redevelopments of the three buildings on

site. Um in fact uh the second one uh

for building number one which is the

southernmost building, the large

hospital building that looks like an X.

um has been submitted and will be heard

at this month's planning commission

meeting. So, uh the applicants are uh

working um pretty quickly uh through the

design for through the uh review

processes and um which we're happy to

see here that the applicants are moving

fairly quickly with um the redevelopment

of this site uh for both the

neighborhood and the city overall. Uh,

with that being said, the planning

commission recommended that the city

council approve the request with the

following conditions. The applicant must

coordinate with the Department of Public

Works regarding the size, location, and

screening of any required refuge

containers. Plan Bureau recommends the

applicant consider eventually

consolidating all refuge storage and

access in the existing vehicular access

areas along the fourth street frontage

of building one on the project site. Um

and if you're familiar with the site, um

the location of the nurses quarters of

building number three here doesn't have

a lot of extra space on it on which to

um provide uh a larger refuge storage

container like a dumpster or where it

could be accessed by um trash trucks. So

that's why our recommendation was to

locate it uh at near building number

one, which already has um loading and

unloading areas. They already have

vehicular access like off the road uh

into their sites. Uh if the proposed

commercial use for the first floor is

not in conformance with the zoning code,

uh the applicant will secure the

necessary zoning relief before

establishing such use. And I don't

believe the applicants know exactly what

they're proposing for that space now. So

that's kind of a bit more open-ended. Um

and then the applicant will incorporate

the city engineers recommendations

regarding improvements to pedestrian

infrastructure and will include new bike

racks near the building entrance. The

planning commission recommended uh city

council approved the request for the

following reasons. The adaptive reuse of

a large vacant and underutilized

institutional building into apartment

units represents a unique and

challenging project for the city and

will support redevelopment of the

remaining buildings that comprise the

former hospital campus. Successful

redevelopment of this institutional site

may help catalyze redevelopment and

reactivation of other institutional

sites to the north, including the former

William Penn High School and the Zebo

Shrine. And f finally sorry, three,

other conversions of former commercial

and institutional buildings elsewhere in

the city have generally demonstrated

such projects do not have adver do not

adversely impact the neighborhoods in

which they are located and often help

generate other improvements in those

communities. And finally, the proposed

redevelopment will add new residents to

the neighborhood to activate the street

on nights and weekends and grow a

customer base to support local

businesses while providing a new

neighborhood focused space and will

provide additional units to the uptown

housing inventory.

Yeah, thank you. And for my

clarification, the

uh this property is kind of elevated,

right? It's not at like the street level

of of of Third Street, right?

>> Uh that's correct. It's uh elevated a

bit up uh from Third Street, but it is

on the same elevation as Fourth Street,

just to the east.

>> Okay. Okay. Yeah. Just trying to get it

um okay in my head. Um, if the applicant

wouldn't mind coming up, introducing

yourselves, and giving us um, where a

brief explanation of where this project

sits within the larger project and any

timelines that you're aware of or

confident of right now. That would be

great.

>> Sure. My name is Greg Hulquist. Uh, I'm

with Penmark Harrisburg Holdings and I

have with me, should I introduce folks?

David Johnson is with Penmark also.

Rich,

>> can you please, excuse me, can you

please speak into the microphone? Sorry.

>> That's okay. Thank you.

>> David Johnson with Penmark.

>> Rich Villa with Ambit Architecture. Josh

Murray with ECI Construction.

>> Sure. So, we put a a little slide uh

package together. You all have seen the

packet that was submitted as part of the

land development application. And so

what we tried to do was sort of give you

an update to touch on that and also uh

you saw a whole presentation when we

came in before for the uh resoning and

the subdivision. So what we've tried to

do is touch on how this is related to

that. So um if you remember when we

presented before it's um this is the

poly clinic campus and aerial view.

Phase one is building three which

Jeffrey just described. Uh it's the old

nurs's uh residences.

Um phase two is building one and that's

the one that Jeffrey mentioned is

following up behind phase one. Uh we're

in for land development application for

that planning commission on Wednesday.

And then phase three is building two

which is right now being used as

executive offices. So there's a lot of

small offices in building two. Folks in

the neighborhood and the area are um

running those now. Um, next slide.

So, this is the site plan and it shows

phase one uh building three on the

corner of Wikiniscoco and fourth. Uh,

next slide.

These are just some street views of the

of the uh building itself. A beautiful

building. It's on the uh register of

historic places. So, we're in for

historic tax credits. that's been the

last couple months um exhaustive effort

to get all that information into the

park service and into the state. Uh so

we just completed that um which will be

a big help in getting this project you

know funded. Um and they you know

because it's a historic tax credit

project we can't really mess with the

facade. So it's basically going to be to

um

you know bring it back up to its former

self as it were. Um next slide.

This is the first plan of the package

that you you all have which kind of

shows a isometric of the building um

which Ambit Architecture has been

working on diligently. This I guess when

we submitted this to you guys before it

was we might have had like six or seven

drawings. We now have what 50 drawings

rich something like that. Um so we're

pretty far into design which is what we

need to do and um yeah it's coming along

really well. Next slide.

Um we wanted to kind of touch on what

you've seen in the package and because

all this design development has happened

we just want to touch on some of the

differences so that you're aware before

you uh take this further. Um, in the

original plan,

uh, there's an elevator up at the top.

There's a freight elevator at the top

right. We were basically not going to

bring that back. We were going to

basically leave it in place. And the

reason was for just the way the building

flow was working. We didn't think it was

necessary that we would need it. It kind

of interrupted the the um

circulation in the building. Uh the

lobby was also up in the upper right

corner. If you remember, we moved the

lobby from the front entrance where it

is now in Wikisca. We moved it around to

the side. And a lot of the reason for

that was just where the folks are going

to park is really in the lot. And in

order to get into the building, not have

them walk all the way around, we thought

was a safety concern and also just a

convenience concern. So we moved the the

lobby up into that corner. And then the

lower right was sort of undefined but it

was a big blob of uh commercial. So the

next slide shows you uh go to the next

slide

how it's developed. And so right now the

commercial is still on the lower right

whether it's on the front by the uh

prominent or the uh what did you call

it?

>> Arcade uh it could be either either

side. Uh um we're not, you know, fully

there yet, but there's commercial on the

lower right. The lobby has moved down

slightly and we've brought that elevator

back into service. So now the building

will have two elevators. So those are

really the main differences in what you

saw before. Next slide.

This is what you saw early in the design

as far as an elevation and it was really

uh what was required to go in for land

development approval is you have to

submit a elevation drawing. Next slide

shows you where we are now. So what's

happened with the elevation is there's a

lot more detail that's being shown.

There's I don't know maybe eight or 10

drawings of elevation which is required

by the historic commission. We have to

detail all the windows. We have to

detail what's being done to the brick.

And so that's progressed

uh to that point. Now, next slide.

Um

last meeting we talked about minority

participation. I wanted to touch on that

again. Um

it's, you know, again, it's a large

project. It's $30 million. Uh big, you

know, it's a big effort here. So,

there's a lot of work to go around. Um

we think building three will create

about 50 full-time construction jobs.

um it'll peak at around 70. So there's a

lot of work there that can be spread

around

building one which is following up right

behind is uh another 90 and a peak at

120. So it's it's a lot of construction

jobs. Um

part of our MBEWB participation program

requires a proactive approach. One of

the parts of that proactive approach was

finding a CM that we felt a construction

manager that we felt had a good track

record of minority participation and not

just by box checking but actually

putting minority contractors to work and

uh local residents to work as well. Um

so what's happened in the last couple

months is July and August we we were

before you in early July. Uh July and

August was really the land development

um submission and furthering our design.

Uh September and October was the

historic tax credit submission.

Uh now we're into November, so now is

really the time where we're going to

start to outreach to minority

subcontractors and suppliers through our

construction manager. Um, so, uh, in

terms of timing of where this part of it

stands is we're now just getting into

that. Uh, we've met with some minority

contractors that came, uh, recommended

to us and they're kind of all chomping

at the bit like, "Hey, where's the

drawings? Where's the drawings?" And

we're just at that point now where we

have drawings that they can look at. Uh,

next slide.

uh community and outreach. So in the

black is kind of what we presented the

last time and in the red is where you

know what we've done since uh our last

meeting. Uh what we talked about was we

had several um neighbor meetings. Um we

had an article in the Berg. She's back

again.

Um,

and what we said was that we would have

continued outreach as the design

developed. And what we've done is we've

had three additional meetings since our

last meeting. Um, and it was really to

present to the community the drawings as

they're getting developed. You know,

kind of what's going on. We're getting a

lot of feedback. Um, input. You you all

asked what kind of input did we get from

the neighbors. Um,

parking was a question. Uh, traffic, you

know, concern. Parking was a concern.

Traffic was a concern. Security and

safety. These were questions people were

asking is how are you going to make sure

that, you know, we have a safe

environment. Um, and then there was some

a lot of construction related questions.

You know, what's going to happen during

construction?

Next slide.

So what we did to address some of that

is we had a traffic impact study. We

hired a traffic engineer traffic impact

study was done. And what they do with

these and I I'm sure you all are

familiar more than I probably

look at what the building use was and

what it's going to be now and what's the

change in peak

um traffic. Um, and what they came up

with was as an office use, which was the

last uh active use for the building,

it was hack uh Harrisburg Area Community

College, your peak hours or your peak

trips was about 148, 1:45 depending on

where you were, AM or PM. And in

relation to that, as an apartment

building, it goes to 36 or 39. So,

significantly less traffic than it would

be as an office building. Uh, one of the

things that we talked about was if you

look at our lot, um, it's an enormous

parking lot. Um, sometimes traffic is a

problem because parking's on the street.

We have a lot of parking in a big lot.

So, it helps to contain traffic. And

that also came from our traffic

engineer. Uh so anyway, we addressed

some of those concerns and presented

that to the folks at the neighbor

meetings and it was pretty well received

I think. Next slide.

As far as parking goes, we didn't have a

a parking plan as far along as we do

now, but basically we talked about 600

and some odd spots that we have uh on

the property. Part of those spots are in

the lot uh caddy corner across the

street uh on the upper right. It's at

fourth and poly clinic. There's a

garage. Uh you all probably know uh

there's 300 and some spaces in that

garage. And what we've done is we've

allocated specifically parking spots for

each building. So we're very clear on

where folks are going to park who reside

or work in these buildings. And we

wanted to be deliberate about that

because when we presented before to the

neighbors, you know, we weren't as

specific as we are now. We know exactly

where everyone's going to go. We've

given free spots out um and can continue

to do so to the neighbors. If anyone

needs a spot, we give them a pass to the

parking garage and uh that you know,

we'll continue to do that. But parking

concerns, I think, centered more around

what's going on with UPMC parking. Um,

if you look at our lot, there's no one

parked in our lot. It's not like there's

an a lack of parking in our parking

lots. It's really the fact that UPMC

doesn't have enough spots in their

facility. So, a lot of the parking

concerns are really related to not our

project, I guess, is the way I would

describe it. Uh, next slide.

And this gives you a shot at the total

parking capacity that we have of 461

spots. Um, you know, significant uh

capacity. In the next slide,

um, another thing that we did was we

worked on the construction log logistics

plan to address concerns they might have

had during construction and we talked

through that with them like how it would

work, what the hours would be.

um

we're not building a new building here.

We're renovating an existing building.

So that when they, you know, when we

presented that and they realized that,

that helped uh to calm some of the

concerns that they had about

um you know, how much disturbance a new

construction project could have. Um so

we presented that. Next slide.

Um and then before we get into this one,

we will continue to have additional uh

outreach meetings, our intention here is

um to just continue to communicate

openly with the public and make sure

that there's good dialogue um happening.

Um so that that is that. Um, so another

thing that was asked about last time was

affordability

um, from a couple of the council members

and I think I was a little quick in the

way I answered that question because

uh, the question was asked, will there

be affordable units? And I interpreted

that to mean subsidized affordable units

rather than are the units affordable.

Subsidized projects are using low-income

housing, tax credit money, home money,

basically public funding to finance a

project. In exchange for that, they

guarantee rents at a low level, and it's

a certain percent of AMI, as you all

know. You all have a lot of uh um

affordable units coming online. Um but

you were asked if there were affordable

units, and I said no. Um but the units

are affordable. So what I thought I

would do for the sake of comparison is

look at there. You know, you also asked

about have you looked at Dolphin County

AMI as well as Harrisburg AMI? You asked

that question and I honestly didn't even

know how to answer that. Uh only in the

sense that it wasn't an affordable

project. But so in doing some digging, I

did my best to try to compare where our

rents are going to be in relation to

what they would be if it were an

affordable project. And I think maybe

that's more of what your question was,

but I did a I took a stab at it here.

So, uh,

our rents, uh, what what we said in July

when we were asked about what a studio

one bed and two bed would be is this is

roughly the range that I gave for what

that would be.

The the these were average rents. And

honestly, the way it was done was,

>> excuse me, which one can you explain

>> on the blue?

>> All right, there we go.

>> I'm sorry. The blue was the the numbers

that I gave when I was asked back in

July and I also gave uh to Asha uh

council person green when we met

previous to that. Um and the what it the

way that worked was we had an overall

design for the project. You know, we're

at the 30,000 foot level and we're

saying what do we think our average

rents are going to be based on the

market uh for this level of unit. Um,

and what we were comparing ourselves was

other market rate apartments in the city

of Harrisburg.

Most specifically, the the probably the

closest was the glass factory. And

that's about the rents that the glass

facto is getting. Um, so we we said was

uh what was in the blue there.

I think a better way to answer that

question might be when asked will there

be affordable units is you know there's

average and then there's where do they

start like at what point can someone get

into this building? The green is where

we've landed as an average after

uh pretty significant design has been

done. We have a detailed design for

every unit. We take that, we go through,

we walk the building, we we look at

what's out in the marketplace, and we

determine a rent for each unit. Um, and

what has occurred is our average for

studios is 961,

for one beds is 1466, and for two beds

is 1673. It's just the way the numbers,

the math shakes out. But our starting

point for studios is 950. For one beds

is 1250 and for two beds is 1550. So

that's kind of where they start. And for

example, there might be three uh studios

out of the seven or eight that are at

950 as an example.

Um next slide.

So then what what we did was we took uh

in this case PHFA's published data for

Dolphin County. So in this case PHFA is

Dolphin County. Uh HUD would be uh

Harrisburg u

uh proper uh PHFA's numbers for

uh what the AMI would be for um you know

percent of AMI for the different types

of units. And what I did is I extracted

those numbers down to the table.

And so on the lower left is where our

rents start that you saw that on the

previous slide. Um you also have to

include the utilities cost because

that's a cost of living there. So we add

utility cost to the number and it says

that our starting rents for studio with

utilities would be 1,5075

for a one bed and 1,700 for a two bed.

And then bringing those numbers down

from Dolphin County uh PHFA published

data for Dolphin County. These are the

this is the AMI

uh based on 30% of the AMI going to rent

is what the average median income would

be at 100% at 80% at 70% and at 60% and

where our starting rents relate to that.

So in this case it would say that our

starting rents for studios would be at

57% of AMI and it's just a straight

calculation. I don't proclaim to be an

expert in this whatsoever. I did my best

to try to get a sense of how these

relate. Um, next slide would be looking

at HUD and this is uh the published data

from

uh HUD for Harrisburg Carile and what

lowincome housing incomes would be rents

at 30% of that and what percent of that

we are. So effectively saying that as

HUD defines low-income housing on the

bottom. So if you look at the upper

chart

um on Harrisburg Carile, they have low

income on the bottom there on the second

batch of numbers for one person, two

person, three person. And so we

correlated that one person being a

studio, one person being a one bed, two

person being a two bed. and it's saying

that we're at around the low-inccome

housing rates as

um

HUD would define it. Um so it's not

we're not we don't we are not a

subsidized affordable

um project because of our financing. We

can't be um but we believe our rents

will be you know roughly in that range.

So at least as a starting rent. Next

slide.

I guess that's the last slide,

but I wanted to try to do a better job

of answering that question because I did

a lousy job the last time.

Pardon me,

Brian.

Councilwoman Daniels.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, um, is that the

conclusion of the presentation?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Sorry, I didn't hear that you

ended. Okay. Um, so I'll just go ahead

and start asking my colleagues uh if

they have questions. I'll start with Mr.

Jones.

>> Uh, thank you, Councilwoman Daniels. How

you gentlemen doing? Good. All right.

Um, one of the questions I I heard you

say a bunch of stuff in these slides,

but I just wanted to be clear on um

something where um the historical tax

credits

versus just the regular tax credits. Can

you explain the difference

>> uh between historic and low-inccome

housing? Yes.

>> Tax credits. Okay.

>> Uh low-inccome housing tax credits would

be used. It's a it's a program offered

in order to promote uh low-income

housing uh for residents and basically

you apply in a pool a competitive pool

and you try to win those tax credits and

devel what developers do is and I I did

this uh for many years um in

Philadelphia with the Philadelphia

Housing Authority and other low-income

housing tax. It's just been quite a

while. Um but basically you compete and

as a developer what happens is

the way you get your return on a

development like that is from a a

developer fee upfront. So it's like a 10

to 15% fee.

Most of the project is funded from the

subsidies. You get more subsidies the

lower your rents are. But again, you're

trying to compete. So you put a package

together. you're in a pool of other

folks. If you win the tax credits on you

go and you do your project, um most of

the project is funded from the tax

credits. It's also done prevailing wage

uh as typically a requirement

>> and those are the lowincome tax credits.

And then historic tax credits are if

you're on the register of historic

places,

uh the federal government offers a

program to

bring life back to those historic

buildings and it's a federal grant or a

fund that it's it's um given. And what

happens is you you get the tax credits,

you then hire someone to sell them to

usually it's banks who get a tax break

and it brings equity into the project.

So it's a way to bring equity. You have

to pay it back. Um you have to give a

return to that those investors.

>> Yes.

>> Just like any other equity investors,

albeit a much lower return. So they're

getting a tax break and you're getting

uh an infusion of equity into the

project which can help projects like

this happen.

>> So there's a period of time where with

the historical tax credits, you're still

kind of dealing with the banks in this

aspect, right?

>> The project is funded from our own

equity

>> bank debt. That would be my next

question. Um, I think you said 30, 45 or

50. How much money is Pinmark putting in

out of pocket?

>> The the total program is around 50

million all in uh and we're putting in

around five.

>> Okay. And so the rest of this

>> and historic tax credits would be about

actually we're putting in more than

that. Um historic tax credits would be

about 7 million. Okay. Right.

>> And then the rest is bank funding that

you have to obviously pay back.

>> Pay back. Right. So, um, with all of

that being said, uh, I I I just do want

to make clear for the record that I did

attend to my colleagues. I did attend,

um, what do you call them? Listening, I

don't know what you call it, the

>> neighbor public outreach, I guess.

>> Yeah. I I I I was there at um one of the

events held at at the site and I think

it was maybe 25 to 30 people that were

there. Uh and and I did hear um you know

some of the concerns that they have and

um to to be honest I don't think any of

them was about the project. It was just

they were more so about the traffic and

uh the parking and I did witness you

give uh some of the residents and

offering them that that needed parking.

You offered them free parking until uh

the conclusion of this project. Um, the

other thing is, uh, I appreciate the MBE

and the DBE. Um, but you said you're at

a phase now where you're reaching out

to, um, some recommended local contract,

sub, these would be subcontractors,

correct? Um, so, uh, I do like that that

some of that money will trinkle down

into our communities. Um, you know, with

some of the companies, uh, that you

intend to use. Uh my other question

would be simply

I asked you a question the last time you

came here about what do you think the

revenue far as taxes will be brought

back to the city? Um did you ever get a

number for that?

>> Yeah. Um so we've submitted for our

LERTA and uh it's around 700,000

>> a year.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

Um, for now I think that's that's all

the questions I have. I'll kick it over

to my well kick it back to Councilwoman

Daniels

if she can hear me.

>> Okay. Thank you. Um, Councilman

Rodriguez.

>> Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, thank you

gentlemen for joining us this evening.

Uh, a few things I appreciate, you know,

over the course of four months since

we've last seen you gentlemen briefly.

Um, is how much consideration you've

taken into some of our questions,

whether you were able to hit it spot on

or not. You actually did some research

and came back prepared, which, you know,

I hold the high regard. And, um, I did

speak with a few residents that you did

keep your word with with the parking

situation that we were able to work out.

and you're probably the second entity

that's come in front of us this month um

or over the course of the past few weeks

and came back 100% accurate reporting

back like hey listen we really want to

do business with the city these are the

things council asked this is us in

response so I really appreciate it I

know council does as well um sometimes

when you're conducting business it's a

give and take but it's great to see the

opposite party willing to meet us where

we are willing to meet the residents

where they are I mean it means a lot Um,

to Councilman Jones's point, the WBE,

uh, MBE participation, how you're

willing to work with local participants

and contractors, it means the world

keeping that dollar here in Harrisburg,

letting it circulate. Um, I know Madame

President is going to ask a few

questions regarding affordability um,

with our package. But, you know, these

are things that we hold high regard, not

because we feel very, you know,

proactive about it, but the residents do

as well. So, um, it just means a lot.

And I'm serious. I did, you know, speak

to a few residents that he said, "No,

he's actually allowed us to stay parking

in the lot and it's working out great."

So, you know, thank you. And, um, I just

hope to keep hearing these these reports

as the project keeps uh going underway.

And what uh what was the timeline as far

as

>> I didn't talk to that.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Um, so we have our demolition permit. Uh

we have a contract that's being worked

out with a local um u demolition

contractor. Um actually there's two that

are partnering together to do the

demolition building three.

>> Great.

>> Um and we're really just wanting to get

through land development approval

hopefully next week. Cross our fingers.

And if we do, then we'll break we'll

basically start the demolition. And we

hope to be finished uh phase one at

about I would say September, October of

next year.

>> Great.

>> So it's about 10 months.

>> Not bad at all. Pretty aggressive. Thank

you. Um

>> remember it's only it's only phase.

>> First of all, my CM's here, so don't act

surprised.

[laughter]

>> But it's it's it's a renovation. Yep.

And I appreciate how much um

background uh let's just say research

you've done on the the median uh average

the average medium income and um

comparing that to throughout the county

and the city because there is a

difference. But then going with the HUD

guidelines and just really taking that

in consideration and then showing us the

numbers in comparison, it means a lot.

um there's not a lot of developers or

even entities that are willing to come

back in front of us and show us the work

they've done based off the questions

we've asked. So, it means that you guys

care as well. So, I really appreciate it

and I know it means a lot for the

residents. Um nothing further. Thank

you.

>> Thank you, uh Councilwoman Ross.

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Daniels. Um, and

thank you all for being here tonight and

for your d your due diligence of um,

coming back and correcting about

affordability and doing some research.

Um, I think that was very important

because that was one of my concerns. Um,

with the apartments being a little high

and I do understand that you're not

going after the the credit the tax

credits for HUD and so forth. So, you do

want a return on the project and that's

that's also important, but you are doing

the community outreach. Um and so I do

like how you had added with the

utilities uh and the price with what it

will be with them added. So I just had

two questions and then a comment. Um

what actually one question what

utilities are included?

>> So one of the things that we saw in the

research we did was an allocation for

trash

uh which will not be uh on the

residence. Um, we'll have a central

trash shoot and I've honestly never seen

that being put on the residence in my

career. Uh, it's just taken care of as

part of the building. Uh, but it's

basically electric water. Um, now

remember this was a hospital so our

electric is at a high voltage rate. So

we're buying electric at high voltage

and we own the transformers. We're

stepping it down. So,

you know, that's that's an important

element, but it's basically electric,

water, and um sewer. And then cable

obviously is a is an option if they want

to do that or not. It's up between them

and the cable company.

>> Okay. Well, you are given a lot with the

utilities. That's a a big deal because

that adds on to your rent. So, as I see

it being added in, that can be like,

"Okay, there's not going to be this

extra bill after I pay $1,300

>> for a twobedroom essentially, except for

like cable."

>> Well, just to clarify, the rent is 950,

>> right? That's the starting rent at

>> that's a studio,

>> right?

>> You think in order to compare this to

HUD or to PHFA,

>> right?

>> Those numbers include utilities. I had

to add utilities to even make a

comparison,

>> right? We that's our estimate of what we

think utilities would be which would be

on the resident to pay.

>> Right. Okay.

>> So a a a studio own a renter should

expect to pay about a starting rent of

about a,50 with utilities included but

they'll be paying the utilities. It'll

be separately metered which is how most

of them are done. Oh

>> okay. I must have misunderstood. I

thought the utilities were included into

the rent of what they'll pay. Am I

missing something?

Yes.

>> Yes.

>> I had to add them to compare it.

>> Yes. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

>> If I say where are we in relation to and

again I'm no expert. I did my best and I

can refine this further but in order to

compare it I can't forget about the

>> Yes. Now I get you. Sorry. All right. I

understand.

>> And let me assure you that chat GPT will

forget about that.

>> Yeah. I'm sure

>> because they got it wrong and I had to

catch them. So I'm just saying. No, you

you have to read them. You cannot

believe everything they say. You do have

to read it.

>> Okay. Um

>> I mean that's it. I mean I I still am

concerned. I mean it still is a little

high. Um just based off especially like

the two-bedroom, but I mean I I see

you're trying to find a way to get it to

a a basis point where someone um could

afford it. Um

I could not if I was um And I'm a

teacher, you know, and when I had my

daughter, I had one daughter. I was a

teacher. I was only making $45,000 at

Harrisburg School District. That's it.

Pay freeze for five years. It wasn't my

fault. Two degrees. So, I did everything

I was supposed to do. And I literally

could only afford 750. And, you know,

thank God I found an apartment that I

could live in that had that. And that

was a two-bedroom. Nothing was upgraded,

but it was still really nice. Um, but I

was still struggling at that price. Um,

so I just get concerned about that

because there's some people who can't I

could not meet the recommendations to

get section 8, to get food stamps. They

said I made too much. And to me, I'm

like, I barely make anything. I have a

car note. I have uh my phone. I got to

pay rent. I got to get my daughter

clothes. She's got to eat. You know,

like it was so many things that I had to

do that I would not be able to live in

your building. And that's kind of like

what I'm thinking about, but I also

understand that um it costs to build to

rehab this building. Um there's you want

to return on it and I get that part, but

it's just I'm just trying to figure out

um you know who could afford it and if

they're doing everything that they can

and they have a good job but they still

can't afford it, right? So, those are

just the types of things I'm thinking

about and I'm trying to, you know, wrap

my head around it to make the best

possible decision. But I do thank you

for all the work that you've done and

trying to find this in the outreach to

the community. So, I'll just keep

listening to everybody's questions and

hearing the answers and try to make the

best decision. So, just thank you.

That's it for me. Um, Councilwoman

Daniels.

>> Thank you, President Hill.

>> Thank you. Um, I I do have a number of

questions, so please bear with me as

your PowerPoint was pretty extensive. I

don't want to miss anything. In

reference to the community outreach and

the three public meetings, Councilman

Jones um estimated um

about between 25 and 30 people present.

Do you think that that was the average

for each of the meetings or what what

was the total there?

>> So, we've learned along the way. Um,

we thought handing flyers out would be a

good thing and it it wasn't as effective

as it could have been. When we put the

meeting on the public website, it was

recommended at I think it was the

planning commission meeting that we do

that. And as soon as we did that, we had

a lot more folks turn out. So, we have a

couple more meetings coming up uh in uh

I don't know if we have one scheduled

for next week. I think it's the week

after next and then the week after

again. Uh and we'll continue to do it on

the um city website.

>> Okay.

>> Try to get a better turnout.

>> Okay. So, the questions that you

received were from the higher turnout of

residents.

>> You mean the ones that we put up there?

Yes.

>> Every meeting.

>> Okay. Were similar questions. Okay. Um

my next question

uh is regarding minority participation.

The slide with the total numbers of jobs

and then your your timeline mentioned

that this month is the month for

outreach. Now what will that look like?

Will it be as aggressive as the um

community outreach or how how do you

intend to meet this need?

You want to take that one, Josh?

Josh Murray, ECI Construction.

So, now that the design is coming along,

this is something that we're going to be

able to do. When we didn't have the

design,

>> um, can you hear me?

>> Not really. Do you mind use using the

microphone over here? No, I think it's

something

>> applicant. Please speak up a little bit

more.

>> Yeah, she can't hear you.

>> No, that's not working either. Hold on.

It's on. The light is green.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yes, that's better. Thank you.

Josh Ecess

packages

globally.

We'll put those packets together and

just send them out in like requests for

proposals, but we'll also do our due

diligence and have site visits and meet

those contractors on site and walk

through the scope of work so they

understand what they are pricing. So,

we're going to start that process here

in October or sorry, in November.

>> Yeah, we're in November now. Okay. So

the outreach for minority participation

will occur simultaneously with the

continued community outreach. Is that

clear? Okay.

>> Correct.

>> Okay.

>> I think the other thing we're going to

be doing for LERA

um is we want to have a public publicly

announced

>> Yeah. meeting or two with um invitation

to any and all folks who are interested

who want to meet with us and um just you

know that's what we did at uh for

example with uh Philadelphia Housing

Authority is we would have like fairs

but I wouldn't call it a fair but you'd

basically have a very large

>> uh like a pre like a pre-bid Yeah.

>> Yeah. And um we explain the project they

all come they

uh we get their information, they get

our information, we set up meetings,

follow-up meetings, that sort of thing.

So, we'll be doing that as well.

>> Okay. Thank you. We'd like to ensure

participation at every phase of this

large project. We want to ensure that um

Harris Harrisburg based

businesses are included. So, thank you.

>> Our first contractor is a Harrisburg

contractor, the demolition contractor.

>> Oh, great.

>> Yeah.

Okay, my next questions are around

affordability. I wanted to go back to

that and I wanted to clarify because I'm

sorry if I wasn't clear. With the

Harrisburg affordable housing program,

20%

of the total units would be deemed

affordable for our residents. So, at 96

units, it would really only be 19. But I

do appreciate um your due diligence in

um trying to answer my question.

Um

affordability is is so important to me

because we've heard from developers that

aren't from the area and they've come in

and said things like, "Well, it's going

to be a beautiful building." And my

response will always be, "That's nice if

it's a beautiful building, but if our

residents can't afford to live there,

it's really a waste of time." Um, so

thank you for the clarity that you've

provided there. Um,

yeah, and I just wanted to clarify that

19 units. So, it's nice if everything is

deemed affordable uh for our residents,

but under that program, it's it would be

19.

Um, let me see. I

don't think I have any other questions.

Those were my main ones. So, thank you.

>> Thank you. Um, Vice uh Councilwoman

Davis. Thank you, Councilwoman Daniels.

And good evening, everyone.

My colleagues have pretty much asked all

of the questions that I was going to

ask.

Um, one of the most important items was

the parking.

I didn't realize the garage had 300

spaces in there. Doesn't look that big

from the outside.

Um,

and then my colleague asked about the

utilities. So, the trash is going to be

taken care of. The residents don't have

to worry about the trash. Just electric,

water, and sewer.

Okay. On top of their rent,

which is good. But this is not

an affordable project. I get it.

I'm just glad that we do have some

affordable projects

being developed

to kind of offset this huge project. Um

I foresee

people who are professionals maybe being

able to afford this um

even the basic um

apartment

I used to live up there also [laughter]

right couple couple blocks down the

street. I had a I think it was a

two-bedroom apartment. [laughter]

It's a very nice neighborhood. Um and it

has a lot of amenities there, so we know

you know what's there. Um the Italian

lake, the river very nice there. Um, but

I think you pretty much covered all of

the bases, Mr. Halquest. You you've

covered everything. And I also

appreciate you coming back and your due

diligence, the the effort, the extra

effort, and going the extra mile to

answer our questions. Um, I haven't

gotten any complaints from the

residents. There's a few of them very

close to up there and you're answering

their questions. and the parking was one

of the main concerns. So, thank you for

extending an olive branch to them for

those extra spaces.

Um, and that's it for me. Thank you.

>> Welcome.

>> Thank you. Does anyone have any last

minute questions?

>> Okay. Um, so thank you everyone. Um, I

would recommend that we add this

resolution to the next legislative

session. Um, and thank you all of the

participants.

Um, next, uh, we will see resolution 74

2025. Mr. Humphre, could you please read

that into the record?

Resolution 74 of 2025, a resolution

approving the preliminary/final land

development plan for 333 Market Street

submitted by Bradley Jones of Harristown

Development Corporation to convert

vacant office space into residential

units and associated site and access

improvements.

>> Thank you. Could someone from the

administration just give us a basic

summary of this resolution? um where we

are in the process and if you and Mr. if

it's Mr. Knight um could you make it as

brief and concise as possible please?

Thank you.

>> Okay, sure. Um so uh this uh development

proposal uh represents um the conversion

of about half of the property at 333

Market Street um from office space to

residential units. Uh it'll be floors 11

through 19. Um you may be familiar with

this property. It's the largest tallest

building in the city here. Um and I

believe uh the um state office leases

are um expiring there. So that's why the

uh building is becoming vacant. Um and

the

floors um there will be 81 uh total uh

units uh in one and two-bedroom

configurations uh with sizes of the

units ranging from 828 ft to,25

square ft. Um so uh the uh proposal will

be similar to a lot of the other prop um

development proposals and kind of

similar to what we just heard here. Um

except obviously being downtown the um

context is a little bit different. Uh

but this um can certainly operate as a

proof of concept uh for the

redevelopment of our downtown office

buildings into things like um

residential units uh which will

obviously help add to the downtown

housing inventory. Uh so with that all

being said, uh the planning commission

recommends the city council approve the

request with the following conditions.

Uh the applicant should install a

secured bike corral or bike storage area

in the sheltered entryway to accommodate

auto non-automotive trips by residents

and their guests as the modal shift for

trips to and from the property will

likely shift as a result of the

conversion from offices to uh

residential units. And if you're

familiar with that uh entryway um from

Market Street, it's the one with the

escalator going up to the second floor

where the actual entrance is. So there's

a huge space in there that uh can

accommodate things like planters or like

bike racks uh for uh residents and their

uh guests. And then finally, the

applicant should consider landscaping

options to soften the building's

exterior and improve the aesthetics such

as additional planters, green or living

walls, andor green roofs on site. Um,

and that could be just simple as putting

down like low kind of ground coverage

plants on the uh on the roof. Uh, the

planning commission recommends that city

council approve the request for the

following reasons. Project proposes the

construction of one and twobedroom units

in sizes larger than proposed for other

similar office to residential

conversions in downtown. The adaptive

reuse of vacant and underutilized office

spaces into apartment buildings is a

long-term trend for downtown Harrisburg

and necessary to enhance the vitality of

the neighborhood and the Market Street

corridor. Other conversions of former

office buildings in the surrounding

neighborhood have demonstrated the

proposed use will not adversely impact

the character of the neighborhood and

the project will help maintain the

viability of a large structure

endangered by the threat of extended

vacancy. And finally, the proposed reuse

will add new residents to the

neighborhood to activate the street on

nights and weekends and grow customer

base to support local businesses and

will provide additional housing units to

the downtown inventory.

>> Thank you, Mr. Jones, if you don't mind

giving us a brief uh summary of the

project. Uh same thing, if you could be

as concise as possible but thorough. Um

and for our edification, just let us

know what is currently in the building.

Um that would be uh no longer be there.

>> Sure. Hi, Brad Jones with Harristown

Development Corporation. Good evening,

council members.

>> I can't hear you

>> if you don't I think it's a microphone

thing.

>> No problem. Can you hear me now?

>> That better?

>> Yeah, that's better.

>> Okay. My name's Brad Jones. I'm with

Harristown Development Corporation and

Mr. Knight did a fantastic job as he

always does in summarizing the the

project. Uh it is, you know, essentially

the top half of the of the 22story

building. It's floors 11 through 19. Uh

the state leases are expiring at the end

of March of uh next year. We're moving

quickly to try to rehabilitate and

renovate and reoccupy uh what is mostly

a vacant building now. Most of the

agencies have moved out, but there's

still a few agencies still moving out of

of the uh building floors. And so our

goal is is pretty simple. It's a pretty

straightforward uh project on the top

half just to try to uh you know convert

that into apartments. We are um working

closely with several uh senior living

developers or senior living

organizations to try to make this into a

a senior living complex um as we are

currently doing over at 112 Market

Street. And uh that is our hope. So

we're we're hoping to to do sort of a a

similar master lease kind of arrangement

for senior living uh in that upper uh

portion of the building. and you know

the agencies that are currently there. I

mean the department of education moved

out into the forum building about a year

or so ago. Uh the budget office is

moving out this month. The and they'll

be moving into the foreign place and the

human relations commission I think has

moved out as well into the foreign place

building. And then

I think that's about it. There's there's

not much. There's one other agency that

will stay on floor two for a couple

years just uh it's the Commonwealth

Media Services, but uh everything else

is will be pretty much vacant by the end

of March next year.

>> Happy to answer any questions.

>> Thank you. I'll open the floor um to my

colleagues. I'll start with Councilman

Jones.

>> Thank you, Councilman Daniels. I mean,

Councilwoman Daniels, I'm sorry.

[laughter]

I apologize. How you doing, Mr. Jones?

Good to see you.

>> Good, good. Uh, similar to some of the

questions that were asked for the

previous developers here, um, again,

this is an existing um, structure. Uh,

one of the questions I'll ask because

they probably ask the same um,

affordability of the units, are we

looking at MBE, DBE, local

participation?

And um I know downstairs it's kind of

recessed where you have I think

>> W A G

>> WGL

>> Sneaker Villa.

>> Um is there intentions for other retail

spaces to come into those? So I know

that's like a loaded question but those

would be my questions.

>> Yeah. So good questions. I'll try to

answer them all. So I'll start with the

affordability. So we are working on a

master lease environment where we'd like

to get one organization to lease the

entire 81 units. And so uh that is the

arrangement that we have, you know, with

our current senior living room project

on uh the old vets building down the

street here. And uh so we don't know

what the rents will be. That will be up

to the organization that would be doing

the master lease. So they'd be setting

those rents and you know bringing people

through into that senior living portal.

Does that make sense?

>> Yeah. So before you go because so you

you you said you've

>> I guess piloted this over here 112. So

what did those rents turn out?

>> We don't know what the rents are. You

don't you don't have I mean you know

they they're paying us a you know once

the lease starts they'll pay us a a

fixed fee that was negotiated and you

know bringing in people into that in you

know environment with whatever rents

they decide to charge. It's not really

up to us.

>> So you do you all right? So maybe I ask

this. Do you have a a preference? I

mean, again, cuz you could hear the the

the line of questioning here, making

sure that this is these some of these

things are affordable, but putting it

into someone else's hands and and we

don't really know what they'll do. Um,

do you have a preference like a number

that you would think or are you are they

do you believe that they're going to use

the same kind of formulas with the AMI

uh locally, state, and HUD and all that?

Yeah, I mean it's it's really not a

question that we you know we we

negotiated a a term of lease for that

that organization. They're a partner in

the deal and they set the rents you know

for individually for the occupants of

that building. So I don't know the

answer to that.

>> Okay, moving on to the next one.

>> Sure. So, um, so the, um, MBE, WBE,

absolutely. Uh, we we haven't, uh,

assigned a or chosen a contractor yet

for this project. We're still in, uh,

design and engineering. This is a big

building that we're trying to convert

from an office to a residential. There's

a lot of engineering issues. So, we're

still in sort of the preliminary design

and engineering phase yet, but we will

certainly, as we always do, uh, seek out