Harrisburg City Work Session - 06/04/2024

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okay good evening thank you good evening

everyone the time is 5:30 pm. I want to

be mindful of everybody's time so we are

going to call our work session to order

than

Mr Parker could you please call the

rooll

yes Miss

[Music]

Daniels misss Davis Pres

Miss

green Mr Jones

here M rolls present Mr

Rodriguez and Ms Bowers present please

note councilman Rodriguez is excused

this evening we will begin with our

committee business the first committee

you will hear from this evening is the

administration committee we have two

resolutions for discussion resolution 28

of

2024 and resolution 29 of 2024 Mr Parker

could you please read both resolutions

into the record certainly resolution 28

of

2024 a resolution appointing Gloria

Martin Roberts to serve on the board of

directors of the Harrisburg Housing

Authority resolution 29 of

2024 a res resolution appointing Zachary

D Jackson Senior to serve on the board

of directors of the Harrisburg Housing

Authority thank

you I believe both of our appointees are

present this evening if you wouldn't

mind joining us right in front of you

please

okay good evening if you both wouldn't

mind taking a few moments to intro

introduce yourselves

please I'm Gloria Martin Roberts

Harrisburg City resident uh since the

age of

seven um graduate of John Harris High

School um

um uh raised my family here my mother of

two uh and a grandmother of four and a

great my mother of 11 and a half Grand

great

grandchildren um I uh started on

Monday as the yeah that was yesterday

I'm get my days ahead of me but as

director of Economic Development and

building and

housing um so all I had to do is come

right downstairs

here

so you need to know anything else no

thank you all

right hi U my name is Zachary David

Jackson

Senior

uh graduate from Harrisburg

High uh the votch is a welder wind up in

the air force for 11 years uh presently

I'm a construction inspector for the

Department of Transportation pend do and

I'm also the judge of Elections for

district

93

um my two of my last children graduated

from Sach High School I was a PTA

president there for four years when they

were going through school um one went on

the pit and one went to Howard

University

and presently I'm just looking to help

okay thank you I just have one question

for both of you before well maybe two

questions for you U Miss Martin Roberts

and then um one question for both of you

collectively

um first I just wanted to clarify you

mentioned you started yesterday that was

Monday June the 3 serving in what

capacity director of Economic

Development and building and housing

are you serving in an interim capacity

or that is correct I came out of

retirement and I plan to go back into

retirement that is inum yes okay thank

you for clarifying my other question is

um and this may be for solicitor Grover

because I don't know if the uh former

director participated on the board I

don't believe so is there any conflict

of Interest with this appointment given

the interim nature of her new

role we do not appear before the house

so so I don't know how that would be I

will double check the authorization act

which I think

193 and see what it says if it us any I

believe former director this one years

ago

one she was director for a long time oh

okay before my time I'm not sure I don't

have the pleasure of um

knowing okay okay if you could just

clarify just be curious to make sure um

and then my question for both of you um

what do you think or what your interest

in the board and what do you think um

what impact do you think you will be

able to make through your

involvement want me go first okay well

you know I um have been very involved

with the issue of um housing um I um uh

served on city council as all of you

know and of course on my committee as

chair of building and housing where I

was be exposed to the significance of

our housing issues in the city of

Harrisburg and especially for the least

of

us um our housing stock uh um how many

houses we have here that are just

decaying that that we really could um

rehab and make them usable housing uh

for people that live in the city and

truly make them affordable housing for

people that live here um on my capacity

as a consultant to the feds I have dealt

with housing issues es especially public

housing and the fact that I believe that

uh public housing should just be a

bridge it should not be a permanent

housing that it should just be a bridge

to help people um uh get to the next

level of housing which is home

ownership um I I believe that um one of

the

um

agencies that have not progressed so

very well in the United States is public

housing um uh it's the same thing that

it's always been um nothing really

creative um nothing really Progressive

and nothing really that helps bring

people out of

poverty and I think that's what it's all

about poverty to me uh when you give

people

um uh menial

housing and you expect them to be proud

of that housing and to be able with that

housing especially children who tend to

be even more embarrassed by the fact

that they live in public housing that

that to me Fosters

violence

anger lack of

education and just it's not it doesn't

it it really doesn't promote um a good

safe living for people everybody should

be proud of where they live everybody

should be given an opportunity to grow

everybody should be uh given an

opportunity to afford a home if they

want to buy one so that's why I say it

should just be a bridge while they're in

public housing there should be Social

Services provided to them and it should

be mandatory that they take these

services so that they know how to manage

their money notice how to manage a bank

account

how to keep a property property

clean uh and and I'm not saying that

everybody lives in public housing

doesn't keep up clean house I don't want

that to be taken out of

context but I really believe that we

could do a lot more in public housing to

support people and give them an

opportunity to have the same advantages

as some of us

have thank

you Mr Jackson yes I agree with a lot of

what she just said said I've been that

1923 bvw

for oh God it's

83 and I've watched my

neighborhood go from 80%

ownership the 80%

run so you're right when people own they

respect when the kids fail at parents

are respected they act

respectful but I never I've never been

one to blame the victim so in this case

I would ask I

would my Approach would be where does

this Section 8 money

go who are these people why does a slam

Lord slum Lord even

exist that's

accountability millions and millions of

dollars

go to these

people you know nine times out of 10

don't live in the

city you know sh I had some guy buy a

house down from me who lived in

Arizona you know zero accountability is

what creates these

problems for if they come in here

thinking wait a minute this this is a

tough sheet if I want to rent be a

landord

this is some tough stuff to follow and

they move on go somewhere where they can

get away with that

manness but but but yeah it floats down

to the

children because if you got a landlord

and I've had a couple in my

community who refuse to fix

stuff you know still want their money it

doesn't matter if that woman or that man

or that family spaying the Section 8

rate and the landlord's that b of that

money there's no reason for your place

to be falling

down it's just not you know maybe we

ought to make the process a little

tougher to come in here and buy a

property I get six or seven offers a day

to buy my

house and I think the 500lb gorilla in

the room is

investors who drive up the price of

housing

you

know they milked the corporations for

what they could in 08 and 09 now they

come for the little houses the small

communities or watch hopp in Chicago

with just the

parking to me sitting here watching

this and I've been to Germany Greece

Spain

turkey and to watch Wall Street Target

our communities

and it flooded in that time period with

zero interest dollars how can the

average American compete with

that when these corporations and these

investors were borrowing money at zero

rate and then coming up and buying whole

communities I up on my car and I drive

down Sixth

Street totally different

and I don't mind

progress but when you destroy these

children as children they don't get to

learn how to put in

P they don't get to learn how to do

concrete you

know so yeah it starts in the home it

starts with them having a decent place

to grow

up thank you thank you I don't have any

other questions I'm going to now open

the floor um for my colleagues to ask

any questions they may have of the two

of you I'll begin with our building and

housing committee chair councilwoman

Davis do you have any

questions thank you president Bowers yes

I do and thank you both for being here

um

today what are you going to do U Miss

Gloria to help to promote um home

ownership between social services and

the public housing

um between social services and public

housing well you know social social

services would be uh talking about

Health and Welfare of people and they're

always ready to partner so it's really

just as easy to ask and they will come

and be happy to implement the types of

programs that are needed in public

housing so you know uh when I was a

chief operating officer with Hamilton

Health Center you know the you know we

had a facility over there uh in South

Harrisburg and um it was the best thing

we could have done because it gave

access access is always key to whether

or not people can get affordable health

care whether they bring their children

and uh to preventative Healthcare to get

their shots on time and and all the it's

it's easy to ask I was director of um

public health programs for the

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania which was

the largest Bureau in the health

department I had all disease areas

except HIV AIDS and I'm going to tell

you um

anytime

anytime they need help over there in or

any of the nine places where where they

uh deal with public housing they will be

there to do that and so will UPMC

Pinnacle and other entities so you need

that because we have a lot of mental

health issues we have we have uh uh F

families that that um uh have children

that are troubled um our children don't

always need to be

medicated um because I'm not hot on that

okay but they they need to be taught

families need to be taught how to take

care of themselves healthwise if that's

the social service part you're talking

about the other the other option for for

public housing is to bring in entities

like the Department of Public Welfare

that offer certain programs once again

not to keep people dependent on systems

but to give them a bridge so they know

where to go to get help so they can

establish

themselves thank you so I'm I know that

you will be in that position and you

will help to you will be an advocate for

some of those programs well if I'm not

an advocate I should step down thank you

very much for your service you're

welcome um I don't have any other

questions no questions for you Mr

Jackson I like to

just reiterate what she talked about

ahead and that that's very important

wraparound services to me is the key you

know because when I was at uh when I was

the PTA president Tech we

implemented the advocacy program where

that person in the school worked in the

school half a day and it went out to the

community for half a day you know so

yeah I mean it makes a difference when

you know why children are being

traumatized when you have an adult there

you know in the

room thank you no further questions for

me thank you I just wanted to note the

Department of Public Welfare is is now

the Department of Human Services I know

that just for everybody's reference um

uh coun but they still do the same thing

yes it's still the same I just didn't

want anyone to think get confused about

the work that they do councilman Jones

any questions um not so much any uh

questions I think my questions have been

answered um in your uh willingness to

serve and what I mean why that you

wanted to serve but I will say to both

of you thank you you I have um known you

both for some time um and just didn't

know your resumés were so impeccable but

uh I do appreciate you guys um the

willingness to come out and serve

because we do need good people good um

uh vanguards in in in these positions to

ensure uh the fairness across the board

for our community and making sure that

there is that level of accountability

that you spoke of so that's all I wanted

to say to you both so thank you thank

you thank you councilwoman R any

questions thank you president Baris and

good evening to you both again um thank

you for being here tonight thank you for

being willing to serve and volunteer

your time to such an important um part

of our city that's not talked about a

lot but it has a big part and it plays a

big role and what our city is to become

especially when it comes to housing and

something that you both um

so kindly pointed out but respectfully

too is that the part of opportunities

right if if we're not given the

opportunities how can we lay that pipe

down how can we learn to do the concrete

how can we learn to take care of our

house and um so I think that a big piece

that's missing in our community has kind

of went away is giving residents the

opportunities to do those things but

more importantly have the knowledge and

teaching to do them right cuz everybody

you don't know what you don't know so if

you show me and if you if you put

something out for me then I can learn um

but I I also need to be taught so that I

can so you all beautifully you know laid

that out I think you all have tremendous

experience with the community with

housing with the the slum landlords that

are created right um cuz if you don't

have regulations if they're not held

accountable they are going to do

whatever they want to but if you make it

hard for them to come into a community

and let it down then they do walk away I

don't want to deal with all of that and

then you get you get good people and

good landlords who who care about their

residents so um I just wanted to thank

you both and just make that comment

because you all so nicely put that um

the experience that you all have is is

truly unmatched and I I can see how you

would both be a great fit on the board

so thank you thank

you thank you vice president green any

questions thank you president Bowers

thank you both for being here tonight I

apologize for my brief tardiness I was

running a little behind so um please do

accept my apologies I don't have many

questions um I guess the first is since

we're talking about HHA uh if you could

both whoever goes first just tell me a

little bit about how much do you know

about the choice neighborhood grant that

Harrisburg housing well HHA in

Harrisburg city um have partnered

together to get um because that's a

current Grant that's going on that um

deals with the redesign of uh some of

the public housing that Harrisburg

Housing Authority has so if you could

just tell me a little bit of knowledge

about that any involvement that you've

had with it um and then how you expect

to get the community to really be a part

of it well I you know I just started

yesterday and so I'm learning about that

um as we speak I've had uh meetings all

day yesterday all day today um this is a

concept that's been used in other states

so it isn't foreign to me um but you're

right it's getting the community byend

to understand that um this is a better

way to provide housing to people who

struggle and I think that um um I I

don't believe any person is an island so

I believe that we need people to come to

the table including the community in a

proactive way and look at this plan so

that people are comfortable with it and

they can support it and it has to be it

has to also involve residents that are

living in public housing because nobody

knows what that looks like unless you

live there and some people have

wonderful stories about living in public

housing look I I grew up with folks that

that um lived in public housing that

that that turned out to be great people

you know NFL coaches doctors lawyers and

so forth um but in today's time which

has changed somewhat you know you have

to bring people to the table so I would

be advocating for that before the the uh

final lines are drawn if you will to

make sure that that process has taken

place to involve the public and um and

then we proceed I'm I'm learning about

how detailed it is now so probably by

the end of the week I'll have

it thank you yeah familiar with it all

so I'll be a definitely a pair of fresh

eyes all right well I appreciate that we

always need fresh eyes uh just kind of

as a little bit of overview um

Harrisburg Housing Authority uh in

conjunction with Harrisburg city did

receive a Federal grant to be able to do

the redesign phase as a neighborhood

Choice um Grant to do the redesign phase

I believe their main focus is hoofer

homes but it also encompasses Hall

manner in the community in that area uh

right now they're about a year into the

Grant I want to say uh and they're kind

of in the the final uh design phases um

and it's always concerned me about how

much Community involvement isn't there I

did speak with them and they're they're

doing some community outreach but they

always need some more Advocates to

really help get the word out there and

get people involved and make sure that

we're touching everyone and really

getting that different perspective uh

The Next Step would be uh to then apply

for the funding to actually implement

the design um and of course that's a big

step but it's important for us to make

for sure we have those Advocates and

those people in our community uh to make

for sure that they're a part part of it

and that the city is a part of it

because it's a big impact to the city as

a whole not just in South Harrisburg but

the city as a whole because um

Harrisburg is not the biggest city

around so everybody knows someone that

lives in every part of the city

so um and then this is more to the

administration um do we know the makeup

of the board itself as as to how many

people on the board currently live in or

near public housing because I think

that's really important too um we don't

want everybody like living in the more

expensive parts of the city and uh and

making the decisions for Harrisburg

housing I know they are all City

residents that's all I know okay if you

could just give me that information I'd

appreciate it thank you that's all I

have and thank you again for your

willingness to serve um we need this in

every capacity we have lots of board

openings so anyone who's listening that

would like to be a member of the city uh

by helping out on some of these boards

it's a volunteer activity but it it

plays a really big role in the future of

the city so thank

you thank you councilwoman Daniels any

questions yes if we could both please

elaborate on your potential conflicts of

interest I know you already kind of

answered one as it related to the city

but are there any other areas of

conflict

I repeat that please any areas of

conflicts of interest no no no and then

um just two comments first I just want

to remind folks that uh public housing

is housing of Last Resort which means if

those individuals don't have it the next

step is homelessness um and I want to

remind folks that we do have a growing

uh onh house population which also adds

pressure to our ESG funding and source

of income so you know hopefully with

your job currently right we create the

economic environment where people can uh

raise their income out of public housing

rather than try to reduce the number of

people who use it we we're in a really

difficult Economic Times right now and

the approach should be to make it easier

for people to um get out of public

housing in a healthy way rather than

just simply reducing the numbers um the

other part is as you know the housing

quality standards are actually higher

than the city's building code so if

anyone ever sees a property that they

feel is in disrepair they just need to

call the housing authority and report

that landlord because they're much more

diligent about following through on

those complaints um because you know we

have a lot of the slumlords we have um

are actually in the private sector um so

so also report those to the city

building and housing department when

they are from the private sector too and

that's I make just one comment because

public housing is not always housing of

L Resort it is it's sometimes it's only

the resort it's the only option that

people have yeah but legally that is

what it is I mean that is what it is

it's not you know it's not luxury

apartments it's not you know people

having yeah yeah it is so when we make

decisions about cutting um we always

forget in conversation that when we cut

or tried to eliminate what we're saying

is these these number of indiv

individuals deserve to be on housed and

that's not what what we should be

looking

for and that's it for me thank you thank

you councilwoman Davis you have another

question just a statement thank you um

president

Bowers I am very um pleased to see you

both here um and willing to do the work

I have and have had tenants that are

well on Section 8 we mentioned that and

there is a big need for

teaching and additional support because

I know they do have supports but

additional

support and in order to get them to the

homeown next phase of home ownership um

I like to see that also so um keep me in

the loop and if there's anything that I

can do

to um help those transition to

homeownership that's my passion to to

see those things happen so thank you

again

for all of the work you've done in our

community and for your service thank you

thank you thank you you I wanted to also

acknowledge the presence of michila

Bennett who is also a current board

member wasn't sure if you had any

comments to share before we move on or

here I I am just going to say um thank

you madam chair and vice and all the

rest of the city council members um I'm

asking for your vote of yes for Miss

Gloria Martin Payne and Zach

um to come on the board we have a board

of three um with two seats need to be

filled

um exactly what Miss Gloria and Zach are

stating um that's the direction that we

need to take Harrisburg Housing

Authority uh in that direction caring

more for our kids that are in our

facilities and buildings um trying to

teach the uh the parents like you said

home ownership getting them more

engaged uh the city of Philadelphia we

went and visited um their Authority and

they have so many social

services uh that are available to anyone

that is living in their communities they

are um they are not missing the

beat any um any housing buildings that

are dilapitated that have been run down

um they are acting on it getting their

hands on it and building more affordable

housing and I think that's what we

should be doing in the city of

Harrisburg also so thank you guys thank

you than you and then one other thing

also um with Harrisburg Housing

Authority we also deal

and like contracts with businesses you

know um I'm looking to push

forward um we need more MBE wbe

participation we need that as far as

like

construction any type of work that the

Harrisburg Housing Authority needs like

lawn

services um securing some of the senior

buildings uh we need more MBE and WB

participation so thank you guys so much

thank you thanks for your presence this

evening uh I moveed to add resolution 28

of 2024 and resolution 29 of 20 20 24 uh

to our next legislative session agenda I

did want to note that uh the majority of

the board and commission appointments

are made on behalf of the mayor city

council has a few which we've made and

um some we've exhausted our ability to

make the appointments so if somebody is

interested um I would recommend

following up with the mayor's office

office directly and sharing your resume

and perhaps um the board or Commission

of Interest I just wanted to note that

thank you but thank you for being here

and this concludes the work of the

administration committee the next

committee you will hear from will be the

building and housing committee I will

defer to our building and housing

committee chair councilwoman Davis thank

you president

Bowers okay Mr Parker

can you ra this resolution into the

record please certainly resolution 39 of

2024 a resolution to consider the

application for a certificate of

appropriateness to demolish the property

and expand the service lot located at

1511 North Front Street Harrisburg PA

which is the which is I'm sorry which

the city of harrisburg's historical

Architectural Review Board recommends be

denied

thank you Mr

Parker okay I think we have um the owner

of

1511 North Front Street attorney here

representative is can you please tell us

your name your full name and position

sure my name is Ash mccom I'm an

attorney with MCN Wallis and N down on

Pine

Street thank you and when ever you're

ready you can go ahead with your

presentation this evening thank

you um again my name is Ash mcom with me

this evening uh to my left are Tyler

Stockholm with EI Associates uh the

applicants uh firm Mark Kowski with K&W

engineers and Sean Fitz Simmons with

Landmark commercial reality we represent

EI Associates in

155 North Front Street LLC the owner of

a budding properties at 1511 and 15 15

North Front the subject property tonight

is 1511 North Front Street the applicant

submitted an application for a

certificate of appropriateness to

demolish that building uh pursuant to

section 7-31 17.6 of the ordinance

applicant and its professionals

presented that to the um historic

Architectural Review Board which as was

noted recommended denial uh so for the

sake of brevity I I'll be the only

presenter tonight but we have the other

professionals available should Council

have any uh specific questions uh for

them are there any questions for me

before I get

started no not yet you can go ahead with

your presentation and then we'll ask

questions after

[Music]

finished thank you Mr Parker

a page one that that you have in front

of you is an aerial

image uh the red marker on the left uh

shows the property it's along North

Front Street between Harris Street and

Riley uh generally a residential

neighborhood with a few small offices

and a few buildings that have been

converted from uh residential to office

uh over the years want to turn to the

next page please page two the blue

outline is the property property is in

the city's historic overlay District

referred to as the old Uptown District

old Uptown generally consists of Queen

Anne and italianate if I'm pronouncing

that correctly uh architecture excuse me

I'm sorry can you please speak either

closer to the microphone or switch

[Music]

microphones is that better I think so

thank you CP I'll try to lean

forward um the second one is aerial with

the city overlay properties in the

city's historic overlay District

referred to as the old Uptown District

uh old Uptown generally consists of tand

and italianate architecture uh most of

it was constructed in the 19th century

or very early 20th century uh the

building itself that we're talking about

was built in 1957 so a few decades later

than most of the buildings that are part

of that that

District you turn to the third page

please it's a aerial with a national

overlay so although the property is in

the city's historic overlay it's outside

what has been designated uh as part of

the National Historic District uh which

is the black outlined area that's that's

slightly shaded it's a little difficult

to to make out but you can see it's kind

of more uh Inland uh from the river

go to page four please this is a street

view of the property uh 1511 is the

building on the right with the little

blue marker on it it's the taller of the

two buildings that's there 1515 is the

other building 1511 is a knockoff of the

international style of architecture from

the 1920s and the 1930s so it's a little

inconsistent with with the rest of the

the overlay District

page five gives you a look of what else

is on this area of North Front Street uh

so here we're looking up you see

Riverview Manor and residential style

buildings uh several of which were built

uh during the the period I was

discussing and some of which are are

examples of the the architecture of that

of that era uh I think it's also notable

that several of the properties in this

area have Landscaping out front or other

architectural um improvements uh to

create a a more attractive and aesthetic

streetcape page six is just looking down

the other direction so now we're looking

South uh down North Front Street um

right next door to the property is the

automotive Dealers Association beyond

that are are residential structures that

are are similar in in style and and age

uh as the ones to the north and again as

you look South most of those properties

have Landscaping of of some sort in the

front

yard so now if you go to page seven

we're zeroing in on the property a

little bit more this shows the existing

conditions it was prepared by K&W

Engineers the existing conditions for

1511 and 1515 North Front Street uh both

properties have been vacant for over 20

months uh at this point despite

applicant's best efforts uh to lease

those as was explained in our letter to

council uh we thought we had a medical

clinic uh as a tenant for

1515 but they recently backed out uh

they determined that the rent was too

high and we could not confirm for them

that they would have the amount of

parking that they wanted um they wanted

22 spaces but 1511 and 1515 combined

have just 18 spaces so the potential

tenant that we had at at 1515 has backed

out uh we think 1515 is still leasable

um but 1511 the subject of this

application is not 1511 is 2 floors uh

but the second floor only has 7t high

ceiling elevations on the second floor

there's no elevator it's generally

outdated uh we've seen that it cannot be

leased as is and and the cost to bring

it up to today's standards exceeds the

value of the building it has no utility

at at this point U moreover as shown on

the existing conditions plan there are

several non-conformities between the two

uh properties that that we would like to

address um by demolishing uh 1511 and

consolidating the properties and I'll

just point out a few of them uh you can

see the lot line coming down in the

middle currently it crosses through uh

several of the parking spaces so there's

parking for 1515 and 1511 on on opposite

Lots uh together the two buildings total

about 9500 Square fet they would require

19.6 parking spaces the property only

has 18 parking spaces is available

parking spaces that are there are also

non-compliant they're only 8 and 1/2 ft

wide when the ordinance requires 9 ft

wide uh similarly the drive aisles are

too narrow I think they're 14 to 18 ft

um when I believe the ordinance requires

closer to to 20

ft so the idea with all this then is uh

that applicant would like to demolish

the smaller building the one on the

right 1511 consolidate the property uh

reconfigure the parking add some

additional parking spaces back where the

building is currently uh if you look at

the bottom of the existing conditions

plan you can see that right now there

are portions of four parking spaces that

that Force the sidewalk out towards the

road the sidewalk kind of bends around

the parking

spaces that shouldn't be how this is is

set up we would like to straighten that

out put Landscaping in there so it's

consistent with the other uh property

along the street uh and so that the

Landscaping also provides a bit of a

screen for the parking lot right now the

parking lot is is unscreened um and and

is not aesthetically pleasing in any way

from Front

Street and so the final page then page

eight uh are the proposed conditions or

the proposed site

plan uh you can see here that the

property would be Consolidated uh 1511

would be demolished parking spaces would

be added uh this shows 20 two off street

parking spaces on one lot they would be

compliant in terms of width they'd be

compliant in terms of ADA requirements

uh they would be compliant in terms of

Drive aisles for uh

accessibility shown on the bottom of the

page is the proposed Landscaping that I

was uh describing uh it's on either side

of the Ingress and egress the the

circles uh that look like trees and

shrubs looking down from above and so we

feel this is an upgrade to the

Aesthetics uh along North Front Street

which is why we brought this to uh harb

for their

consideration the the uh harb

regulations or the zoning ordinance uh

require that Council consider certain

criteria when when looking at this those

are found in section 31710 A and B 10A

directs Council to consider the effect

of the proposed chains on the general

historic and Architectural nature of the

building and District to consider the

appropriateness of the exterior

architectural features which can be seen

from a public Street and to consider the

general design Arrangement texture and

material of the building in relation to

other buildings in the district so as I

explained before 1511 North Front is

inconsistent with the historic and the

architectural character of this of this

District um it's a knockoff of an

international style uh of design uh the

international design style of design is

not consistent in and of itself with the

district uh and to make matters worse

this this is merely a knockof of it it

was built decades uh

after the building is out of place um

and in addition it's one of few

properties that has no Landscaping along

Front Street U but after the building is

demolished parking can be added and

reconfigured to allow Landscaping along

the front the other section that matters

here is 317 10B which essentially

directs Council to consider the

demolition criteria of the harbor

guidelines uh there are six of them and

I'll try to get through them pretty

quickly here number one what is the

existing condition of the structure the

existing condition is that it's been

vacant for 20 months it's outdated it's

economically unusable and it's without

commercial utility because the second

story is only 7 feet in height and it's

got no

elevator number two is it on the

national register or architecturally or

historically significant to the historic

district

first it is not on the national register

uh and second as I've been explaining

throughout the presentation it's it's

not architecturally significant and to

the applicant's knowledge it's not

historically significant nothing of

import has occurred there and and no

owner um has has uh of any historic

import uh has owned the

property number three is the structure

design or historic intrusion in our

opinion it's both uh the guy guidelines

do describe a uh design intrusion as

being inconsistent with the design of

the other buildings in the district I've

already explained that piece um the

historic intrusion is because it's not

built at the same period as the other

buildings in the district and it has no

historic significance presumably that's

why it was excluded from the national

register when we took all those

properties uh through that

process number four uh what is the

structure contribution to the streetcape

and Street design in our opinion there's

it's nothing right now at the tracks uh

that's part of the reason why we want to

demolish it uh put screening put

Landscaping in front of it uh so that

we're blocking the view of of the

parking lot that right now is just wide

open to the street number five what type

and quality of development is being

proposed to take the place of a

demolished structure you know admittedly

a parking lot is not what we would all

prefer to have there I I get that uh but

the applicant is not in a position to

demolish both buildings buy other

buildings on the lot and build something

new and beautiful that everybody can use

at this point we're trying to mitigate

what is already there the property can't

be leased it's too expensive to renovate

the property and so the idea is to

demolish the building put up Landscaping

to at least make Front Street a little

more aesthetically pleasing when when

you're going by and to hopefully

increase the value of 1515 by providing

providing additional parking so that we

can get that property leased as I said

one of the reasons the tenant that we

thought we had left was because we

weren't able to confirm for them uh the

amount of

parking lastly number six uh what are

what alternatives are there to

demolition so I think it's it's clear to

us at this point that 1511 is not

leasable uh if it's not demolished it

will continue to sit vacant eventually

the property owner is going to have to

go and appeal the value uh of the prop

property and and and it will sit there

until you know it it falls down on its

own accord um as to 1515 it's

salvageable and we're trying to salvage

it at this point uh if 1511 continues to

sit vacant that draws down the value

that draws down the the leas ability of

15

1515 um and so at some point the

applicant may also then be required to

go and request a reduction in the value

of that property from a property tax

standpoint

so again we know parking lot is not what

everyone wants but it's better than

what's there now and and I think it's

better than what could happen in in the

future if the properties continue as as

they are uh we believe an analysis of

the criteria that I laid out before you

um lends itself to approval and so we

ask that Council approve the application

for the certificate of appropriateness

to permit the applicant to demolish 1511

North Front Street conditioned on

applicant advancing a subdivision plan

that is is consistent with what was

provided in our application and

conditioned upon applicant modifying the

parking and adding landscaping and

screening in a manner that's consistent

with what was depicted in the

application and so with that I'm happy

to answer any questions we have civil

engineer we have the architect uh and we

have the commercial uh broker here uh as

well to answer any questions that you

might thank you thank you very much for

your

presentation Mr Knight did you need to

say did you want to speak I mean I'm

happy to answer any questions that

Council may have about um uh the board's

deliberations or the plan bureau's case

report or why they made the decision

they did um I think you

[Music]

know I I can I don't want to necessarily

speak for the board and put words in

their mouth their um uh their thoughts

are in the resolution uh through the

discussion at the meeting um but I think

some of these uh uh issues that uh the

applicants have brought up about um you

know we do disagree with these uh you

know the applicants have made a lot of

assertions to buildings not being

structurally or financially viable yet

provided no documentation at the Hard

meeting um to justify this nothing to

say this is going to require a million

dollars to fix up and the property is

worth

$200,000 um so if they do have that then

that's something that maybe needs to go

back before uh the board and to allow

them to review more information but that

was not provided with the initial uh

submission um the

uh applicants have implied that the

existing structures are not consistent

with like the streetscape or the

district uh but historic districts are

not just

um they're not just buildings and blocks

Frozen in Amber of from a one specific

time they're changing and evolving

things uh because they're in a um you

know a city uh that's constantly the

needs are changing uh there are

different structures throughout the

historic districts built at different

times it's not just uh this property was

built between 1910 and 1920 and only

those properties built during that time

are considered you know relevant to the

historic district as I'm sure all the

city council members know if you go up

and down um Front Street you see many

types of these buildings you see new

historic building or new commercial

buildings uh intermixed with older

buildings um you know to the point to

the applicants point about the

properties not being a National Historic

District and thus being a recognition of

their limited value I would just note on

the map that he provided the adjacent

Riverview Manor is not in the National

Historic District either that does not

imply that that property is either not

historic or not contributory to the

district itself um I think I think

ultimately though what it really comes

down to is that this proposal is for the

demolition of a structure for parking um

I would you know in my opinion driving

down uh Front Street or even in some of

maybe parts of Second Street the worst

parts of these historic districts are

the ones where structures have been

demolished for surface parking um and

that was maybe there was a reason for

that back in time maybe it was just uh

uh I guess um oversights on the

government at that time but to imply

that the removal of a building that

creates a consistent streetcape um along

Front Street here and the construction

of a parking lot is somehow an

improvement over existing condition is

frankly I don't think an argument with

Merit um during my 11 and a half years

here with the city to my knowledge we've

only ever approved one demolition permit

uh for 1512 and 1514 North Second Street

um and that was several years ago um but

during that discussion the one of the

only reasons it was approved is because

there was a pending development project

with it so it was not approved and just

being allowed to sit as a vacant lot in

fact one of the conditions of that

approval was that the property not be

used for parking even temporarily

because we know that what happens with

um parking when you demolish a structure

and put down parking it's very rare that

that ever gets redeveloped here in the

city and so uh you know tearing down a

building is really a last resort uh in a

historic district um because that goes

away you know it goes away completely

you cannot rebuild a historic building

um in a way that retains its historic uh

and so you know really if the applicants

were proposing to demolish the building

and build something new there would be

some consideration there of saying okay

we see that uh you know this building is

um infeasible or uh not maximizing the

value of this property uh but that's not

what's being done here and I think you

know the applicants do understand the

value of riverfront property uh as city

council may be aware you know they were

they came to City a couple years ago

about a new development up on North

Front Street um and it was a really nice

development uh so they understood that

you know this and I think they testified

during that meeting that these are great

views of the river uh and while I would

say that these buildings themselves are

uh you know not as nice as what they

were planning to build there they still

have these views of the river and so I

mean without any sort of documentation

that these are unleas or again these are

financially uh or structurally unviable

uh buildings um I don't think that the

historic review board uh would lend

Credence to just testimony to that

effect um and so you know the planning

Bureau supports the board's uh

recommendation to deny this uh there are

um standards in the National Park

Service uh preservation briefs uh for

mothballing structures for taking

structures that maybe have a um

temporary vacancy and a current owner

doesn't necessarily know what to do with

it and putting it uh on hold for lack of

better word uh until they're able to

find a viable reuse or a viable tenant

um and we would at least like to see uh

that aspect uh pursued maybe a little

bit more than just saying well we waited

for a year and a half and now we can't

find a tenant so we want to demo this

building and just build parking uh the

final thing I would bring up and I I

mentioned this um during our harb

meeting as well is that uh you know the

applicant has indicated that there's 18

spaces there now I think there's

actually 19 when you look at the um uh

site plan of the existing properties uh

but as part of their project they're

proposing to build a connection to the

adjacent property at I think uh 1500

North Second Street which is also owned

by the applicant uh that that driveway

connection will result in removal of

three spaces so while there's about 19

spaces there now maybe 18 uh and they're

telling you that there's going to be 22

which implies that there's going to be

an increase of six spaces they're

actually going to be losing three spaces

from the adjacent property and if the

applicants tenants are really looking

for parking then it would seem to me

that they apparently have three spaces

to give at this adjacent property and

they could lease spaces to them at that

property instead of demolishing a

building and building a surface parking

lot um so that's kind of the planning

bureau's um uh uh perspective and stance

on the issue and again happy to answer

any questions thank you director Knight

I have a few questions um Mr E and then

I'll open it up to my colleagues sure

okay how long has the owner own these

two properties uh at 1511 and 1515 North

Front Street 15

he's owned since 200 6ish around there

2000 2006 uh 200 or uh 1515 I'm not sure

how long he's own

that okay so so 20 years 25 years give

or take okay and do you

know when he purchased I think is a Mr

siano is the owner correct that's

correct well it's a it's an ownership

group so he is a member of the ownership

group of these two properties Mr Knight

referenced the property to the rear he

is also a member of that ownership group

but it's a different group it's not the

same you know he's in both but the other

people in the groups aren't the same

okay so excuse me though this property

15 1511 northfront was brought bought in

2006 whenever he purchased or whenever

they purchas is the

property I'm wondering if they were

aware of the uh building being in being

a historic building and the City of

Harrisburg ordinance passed which looks

like it wasn't passed till 200 May uh

that a proposed demolition of a historic

building is associated with construction

of a new

building I I can't answer that question

I can just say if if they bought it

before the ordinance was in place they

probably didn't didn't know about it and

and I believe that there are two

different Provisions there's one

provision that requires a new building

when you're demolishing and then there's

another one for just demolishing and and

we are going under the provision for

just

demolishing okay so in 2006 there wasn't

any research done in terms of this

building being a historic building and

and you know what could happen if the

owners decided to demolish the building

and there wasn't any information

presented to them not not to my

knowledge yeah they were able to own and

Lease the building for for many years um

I think Co changes a lot of things and

the market for everything kind of

changed after after that and so the

ability to uh lease Class C Class D

office space has kind of plummeted uh

since Co and so I think they've

struggled to lease the property since

then have they considered saving or

applying for any grants to help remodel

1511 as a to preserve it um and make it

more available for use and to make it

more lucrative yeah I know they've

looked into different into different

options uh I do a lot of land use work

I'm not aware of any grants that would

fit the bill for a private Redevelopment

uh of a business use like this um but I

can certainly ask him about that okay

and lastly by demolishing the building

and restructuring the parking lot you

already mentioned that the owner or the

health clinic that was supposed to

occupy 1515 is not interested

anymore um has the owner or owners

talked about possibly renting those

those parking

spaces this uh the tenant backed out

just over the last couple days right so

there there hasn't been anything looked

at we wanted to come to this meeting

first get a feel for what council uh was

thinking but no they haven't pivoted yet

to start going down other paths okay

thank you I was just wondering if they

were thinking ahead and thinking that if

this other outfit didn't work out they

could possibly rent those spaces out and

those other spaces behind 1511 is that

where the vet center is uh no that's for

the large if you look on the first uh

page the aerial yeah the vet center yep

okay so it is it's right it's that it's

that one okay and like I said that one

is Mr cion is a member of that ownership

group but the ownership group is not the

same as as the ownership for the other

buildings okay and so just so that I

understand if this building is

demolished there going to be additional

spaces connected to the that

Center yeah so if this uh if you look on

the very last page of the packet if this

building is demolished where the

building currently sits uh would be 1

two 3 four five six new spaces and that

drive aisle because it's not wide enough

to go both directions that drive aisle

would continue into the Vet Center

parking lot and then people could exit

that way so that way those that are are

parking in the front have the option to

go to Front Street or out the back uh to

Riley or one of the side streets okay

thank you very much I will open the um

platform up for questions and I will

start to my immediate right with

councilwoman

Daniels sure so in addition to the

parking lot being an accessory to the

1515 building

or there were their thoughts about um

the parking spaces being commercial

parking spaces you mean for lease yeah

like I said we have not gotten that far

I I just found out about the tenant

backing out

yesterday um so it's it's very fresh so

you know there has not been a pivot to

to think of new options yet and and I

wanted to ask like or how close to the

line so so I have to look but I am

pretty sure a commercial lot would not

be permissible under city code there

that's not to say they couldn't lease

the entire lot that is but what renting

parking spaces out like a commercial lot

would be a problem I just wanted

to clear on that um and could you go

through again the timeline because I am

pretty sure I've seen people come out of

those buildings like relatively recently

but you said it's been the 1511 has been

vacant for 20 months 20 months yeah

there I'm sure there have been people

going through looking at the buildings

um you know for for those reasons but

the the information that I was provided

is that they have been uh Unleashed for

20 months who was a tenant

before pleas was it youth Advocate yes

it was okay um and so of the where were

where were these properties advertised

like so you have one tenant that kind of

bailed on on correct we've been

marketing them landmark commercial realy

for the last 20 months uh I have the

whole portfolio of Mr sano's buildings

up and down Front Street he owns quite a

few uh we've taken plenty of tenants

through these buildings and we we

repeatedly get the same answers 1511 is

not viable they can use the ceilings are

too short upstairs it's very built out

small very small offices downstairs and

there's no real place to put an elevator

nor would it be cost effective to put an

elevator in that building um and that's

what we keep getting so we we we've

actually had Tenants come down there and

we've done deals with them in other

buildings and properties that he owns

the other thing and the real main

concern here what I think we need to

think about is we're adding parking but

we're making the parking much more

efficient if you've ever seen that

parking lot full it is is very packed

it's very hard to get in and out of and

the the as Ash said earlier the drive

lanes are extremely small if you have a

big vehicle in there there's a good

chance you might be stuck until somebody

moves a car to get you out or or vice

versa so that's I don't think it's just

knocking a building down to create it

you know additional parking it's also to

create parking that's much more

efficient for the property itself yes

it'll give us some more spots but it it

it makes 155 more viable because that's

the other problem that we have is the

parking we have you know 18 or 19 spots

in the front there but they're really

not 18 or 19 spots if you if you look at

how they're configured size of the

vehicles and other things that could

that would be in that lot you don't get

the efficiency you don't really get the

18 or 19 spots and that was a major

concern with the lot in fact we've we

did have a health clinic looking at it

but we're also in a letter of intent

right now with UPMC um for Pediatrics

unit they looked at the building also

that was their main concern their major

thing they saw no value in 1511 1515

could work for them but the parking

situation was just completely uh

completely not going to not going to fit

the bill for okay and I'm kind of used

to I mean this isn't a large commercial

building but but it is not a small one

um kind of having multiple tenants so

why wouldn't you be able to lease out

just the bottom if that seems to be the

one that's functional and use the second

floor as well I mean if you put two

tenants in that building that weren't

together weren't you know coing tenants

just having like one tenant that could

use the bottom well then you're not

you're not maximizing the building to

begin with but I think also if you have

two separate tenants so if we put one

tenant in the first floor of

1511 uh 155 I mean when we're sharing a

parking lot there you're you're running

into problems there's no way around it

especially if they're not it worked a it

worked when youth Advocate was there

because they had both

buildings now you know if you put two

separate tenants in that property it's

going to be causing some problems with

the parking and there's no question

about

that but if you're just using the bottom

you'll have probably few work I I mean

this could be a place that has a lot of

workers or very few workers I don't know

what businesses would be there so

because some of the parking lot issues

are really you just need to re you could

just

repaint um because the other question is

if the building is demolished that turns

into parking lot which means

more surface area it's already 100%

impervious so there wouldn't be any more

and I I

think go

ahead I can repeat it for him so the

there is more impervious coverage on the

property now then there would be once

the building is demolished and the

parking lot is put in because we would

be adding

perious or grass areas to the property

and that but that just seems pretty

limited to like that to

the yeah I guess your question was would

it increase and the answer is no it

would decrease that's correct but just

very like yeah not it's not going to be

not negligible but not going up for sure

so sorry something to consider is um the

you know there's the ordinance that

requires a certain number of spots and

then there's the marketability piece of

the tenant wanting that number of spots

um and that was the the total spots for

the property whereas if you have a

tenant in both buildings they're both

wanting that same amount of spaces so

we're talking about just one of the

buildings needing all of those spaces

versus two

buildings tenants so just me to consider

yes I think I would kind of like to see

like what businesses you're looking at

because I think right these spaces could

be used by like I said a business that

has a lot of employees or a lot of

clients or a business that has very few

and you know people you know especially

if you have a lot of workers who live

right around there air right um they

could just walk to work and you don't

even so it would be great to see an

analysis of what kind of business you

think you'll be least yeah what

businesses are completely excluded from

being able to use the space yeah I think

it's been open it has not been a a

limited we're focusing on this type of

use I would like to see what's exped

because I want to see what's the loss in

in in customer Bas in in tenant base

that you don't have right like who and

then it because

if I don't know if the if you lose out

on Beef Processing tenants right that's

not a loss because that can't process

cows can't fit in there right um but if

you're losing a lot of um tenants who

are in Tech maybe right then maybe

that's a really big loss of use so be

great to see have some kind of sense of

what it is what the value has been lost

um because I think I've driven through

that parking lot I understand the

logistics of it it's kind of annoying

but it's fixable with pain as it is

right now it it it is and Sean I'll let

you talk a little bit about the the

types of tenants but the the two

properties already don't have enough

parking under the zoning code and so for

us to repaint and paint with the right

size we would be reducing the parking

further so whether it's 18 or 19 spaces

now when you reconfigure and make the

what's correct I don't know I'm not

going to guess what you're going down to

but you're going down to something and

so we would have to go to the zoning

hearing board and go get a variance and

if anybody has been to the zoning

hearing board you know reducing parking

is is not generally looked all that

favorably upon in my experience at least

with with the zoning hearing board um

for uses like this I we've been able to

do it with affordable housing we've been

able to do it with multif family housing

um but I don't know what arguments we

would have to be able to reduce parking

simply because we want to redraw the lot

lines I think the feedback would be

you've got 18 spaces there now why don't

you just leave it the way it is and and

use those 18 or 19 spaces so I think

you're right we could redraw it and make

it more user friendly but in doing so we

would end up losing losing parking

spaces and could I interject for a

second the applicant's implication that

the property doesn't have enough parking

um or that redrawing parking would cause

them to go back to the Z hearing board

is actually not necessarily correct

because our parking regulations are

based on the type of use and not the

structure so uh maybe for an office use

they might have to do it but if the

applicants had considered a different

use that had uh different reg uh

regulations for how the required off

street parking was determined they might

not have to do that so I think really

it's it kind of sounds like they're just

saying office office office and if we

can't find that we have to demolish this

I mean that's what I'm hearing frankly a

lot of and um you know I don't know

whether I I don't know whether again I

don't know how much uh uh they Outreach

they've done to other types of uses or

something like that but just because

they're uh either reducing parking or

retaining the same amount of parking

does not require them to go to the

zoning hearing board I just want to make

that clear Jeff's right my analysis was

based off of an office tenant because

the buildings are Office Buildings um

but Sean you might be able to talk about

who's the buildings are Office Buildings

and that's who the interest that we've

had any showings that we've had have all

been professional office users and

medical users and those are the two you

know that that have been focused and and

quite honestly those are the buildings

that highest and best use it fits um you

know I don't think I can tell you that

in the past few years since Co there's

been a big transition from buildings the

a buildings that a lot of the owners and

you know that that the a class buildings

the rents have gone down because they've

had vacancy so a lot of these PE a lot

of the the tenants that are in the BNC

buildings have been able to move into

some a spaces which have made these

buildings much less desirable as well I

mean if you can go get building you know

a space in a b

building uh really nice has a nice

parking field and everything's ready to

go you you're going to take that at at

the same rate as you can get you know a

c building for you're going to take that

or a DB building you're going to take

that and not think twice and that's

really the what we've been experiencing

also is the buildings are dated times

have changed in the world and and

especially in the commercial real estate

world and the office and and like I said

before I mean we we've we've had many

different office type users come through

there medical users also but the

buildings are Office Buildings I don't

really see any that's the use you know

that's that's the highest and best use

for these properties and without I mean

you know I I don't I don't I don't

really know what else we would try to

Target or what we could we could

reconfigure them into outside of you

know some type of office use whether it

be Medical Professional and there's a

lot of different categories that can

fall into that but they're all office

type

uses thank you and that's it for me

thank you thank

you okay uh Council vice president green

questions thank you councilwoman Davis

um a lot of my questions uh councilwoman

Daniels did ask um so I guess mine is

just more kind of like a comment I'm not

a big fan of demolishing buildings for

parking because we have a parking issue

in the city so next we just start

demolishing houses because we need more

parking right um it kind of just seems

like more of a convenience and a

necessity at this point um it doesn't

seem like you really have went through

what other options are available um

that's just from what I'm hearing right

now uh and then also it's the evidence

piece I know you said that as far as

renovating it it's it's too it's too

high it's too expensive uh but right

without any evidence it's just like you

can say whatever you want to get what

you want right so um that would be kind

of my take on it I'd like to see some

evidence to prove that that's actually

the case uh because I'm I'm definitely

not for demolishing a building for

convenience of parking so understood

vice president green and we can pull uh

get a cost estimate together in the

building value and try to get that

submitted uh through Mr Knight and Mr

Grover for Council to to look at if that

would be something of interest to all of

you um and then you know I think you

also ask ask about other options and you

know I think in in our opinion that the

cost estimate and building value will

will point out that there's there really

is only the one option and to Mr

Knight's comments about the streetcape

right part of this is to increase the

value overall because if we make the

street ape nicer if we are able to push

the parking back off the sidewalk if

we're able to put in landscaping right

then that increases the value and the

utility of 1515 and makes it more

attractive so that somebody can come in

and rent that and use it um I think

right now the way the property sits

there is no screening or buffer at all

so when you walk by you are walking

literally right beside the parked cars

it's wide open there is nothing

aesthetically pleasing or attractive

with that streetcape the idea here is to

push the vehicles back so that we can

landscape in the front block the parking

lot from View and so yes while we would

be demolishing a building to add parking

that parking would be not visible or

less visible because it would be behind

Landscaping as compared to the parking

lot now it's just wide open to the

street thank you and then I have one

other question it's two separate Parcels

right now correct it hasn't been

Consolidated so why you choose to ask

for the demolition before consolidating

just out of

curiosity uh I I don't know if there's a

good answer uh for that one uh vice

president green I think the the idea was

these had been leased by one entity for

several years uh as councilwoman Daniels

pointed out um once they left and they

weren't able to be leased we started

looking at other options and so whenever

they said hey can we get rid of one

building and add parking we pointed out

uh the site engineer and myself pointed

out that well you've got two different

Lots you shouldn't have parking on on

two different Lots let's consolidate

them so you know that's that's my

general recollection of how it went down

but I don't know why he didn't say 15

years ago you know let's just

consolidate these all right thank you

that's all I have and just one more uh

statement the applicants did file a um

lock consolidation plan concurrent with

the COA application uh but we just just

hadn't processed it awaiting a final

determination on whether the property

cuz if the property wouldn't be if the

demolition is not approved I don't know

that they'd want to go forward with the

law consolidation so it's we wanted to

make sure it was following the

appropriate order all right that kind of

answers my question so it has already

been fouled just not processed that's

correct all right thank

you thank you I just have one question

um before we move on do you I thought I

read something about a bike rack

inherent within the streetcape or the

parking lot it would be back towards the

building okay M which building the

155 the one that would remain

okay all right so like on the

side there on the edge okay which

doesn't interfere would not interfere

with any of the parking spaces I'm

assuming no it would be over near I

believe near the uh Ada space that's

visible to the left of that

okay okay okay thank you sure president

Bowers any questions I don't have any

questions many of the questions that I

had were asked and answered I did just

want to note I guess for Mr Knight um

the municipal historic district

certificate of appropriateness

application it still lists former mayor

Reed's name at the top I didn't know if

you were aware of that no we haven't

been given that out I might a a lot of I

figured that it was a dated document but

I just wanted to let you know for your

reference thank you yeah I think a lot

of times especially people who um do a

lot of submissions might just have an

old version and they just keep

submitting that so uh that happens

sometimes I but I'll make sure uh the uh

most updated document is available on

the website and is being distributed

okay thank you thank you councilwoman

Ross thank you very much um councilwoman

Davis um I don't have a a lot of

questions and maybe like one comment I

just wanted to also get some clarity on

a few things

um Mr Knight exactly uh why did uh the

historic why did they uh deny the

application I heard a little bit but I

wanted to make sure that I was right

before I asked my other question um so

the stated reasons uh for the denial in

the resolution uh was that the applicant

had not provided a justification for why

a structure along a primary Corridor in

the city must be Den knowledge must be

demolished for a net increase of no

parking spaces uh the proposal is out of

conformance with the city's historic

district design guidelines the

comprehensive plan and the zoning code

um because the off parking requirements

for office uses uh presumably the use

that is or will be occupying the

property in the North or based on square

footage and the building is not being

enlarged or expanded there is no zoning

rationale for the applicant uh

reconfiguring the parking uh the

property and structure of no outstanding

violations or condemnations that might

be used as justification for the

proposed uh demolition so um kind of

referencing that uh earlier example I

provided about 1512 and 1514 or Second

Street if you all are familiar with that

like that has oral windows that are

potentially like falling into the street

that had been issued uh condemnation

orders and placarded over you know

decades uh and so that kind of provided

a justification whereas that did not

exist in this case um and then the

adverse impacts on the Urban Design and

Architectural character of The Front

Street Corridor would be significant as

the building from OS for demolition was

constructed as a pair with the building

to the north um and will exacerbate the

poor urban planning decisions that have

resulted in the dedication of half a

block of UR front property within an

historic district being devoted to

parking thank you very much I wanted to

make sure any residents who may not have

been privy to get to that information

knew exactly why it was denied um

because I did see that in the resolution

but I know everybody doesn't have the

same things at home so thank you um I

and you might have already said this um

Mr E but I don't think so because we

were still needed some information on

um what other things that you all look

at to do with the property other than

demoing it um what other ideas that you

had um just some more information and I

didn't hear this though but how much

would it have cost to demo how much will

it cost to demo

it do you have that

information we can get that for you oh

you oh you didn't look at that before

you decided to demo it I'm sure the

applicant did I don't have that

information okay yeah I can ask him for

it yes please I mean I think that's

important to know to see why you came to

that decision and I think my only

comment on this was it it's very

difficult for

um first we we had the housing uh for me

two members that come up for the Housing

Authority come up to be on the board and

the the big part was you know we are

lacking in affordable housing or housing

so the demo a building and not looking

at it as it can be something else it's a

difficult thing to say let's demo it and

add more parking in a in a place we

don't we don't need more parking there

um and if it's not going to be used as

housing then did we think of event an

event place somewhere to have events

that's something we also lack in the

city uh uh places for people to go have

nice events EV at or um there's also

something happening I know in some

places where uh you can rent out little

spaces in offices where uh people may be

doing nails or hair or and and they can

rent them for a day because maybe they

can't afford uh a place with in the city

or somewhere else to have their business

but they can rent these little spots out

for uh a time like week or a month or

whatnot to try to get their s um going

within their business bus I've seen

little hubs like that in the suburbs I'm

sure we can do it in the city too I

think my whole point of that is just

like revisioning it instead of just

saying well let's tear it down for

parking because my first thought was

well do they do they need more parking

for the vet center um you know why is

this being torn down and not you know

looked at something new and um something

different so I know for me I would

definitely want more information on how

much is it going to cost to demo it um

how much would it be for you to

re-envision it in some different ways um

that would actually bring something to

the community other than just more

parking uh so uh for me to make a sound

decision I I would definitely need those

that information so thank you that's it

for

me thank you councilwoman RS councilman

Jones questions uh the benefit of going

last feel like Judge Masters you go you

both presented a great

casee and it's almost time to make a

decision no but um yeah um I just Echo

some of the sentiments that my

colleagues have um being a a small

business owner not as big as you guys

yet but um I understand the business

side of it and you know you purchase the

property and the things that you want to

do to get your return so I get that and

also got to understand the historic

value in that area of of the city of

Harrisburg

um and seeing other things uh the the

necessity or the need for other things

to be uh functionable in that area so to

just to knock the building down again I

get that part of it so for me I would

just like to get some more of the

evidence to see what uh Mr Knight was

talking about uh reading this though I

will say that you guys did a wonderful

job because if I didn't hear Mr Knight I

like you guys have me at hello all

right but I do want to do my always make

sure I'm doing my due diligence and um

seeing what other things that you guys

can bring to the table now have you guys

even looked to

compromise is there a

compromise well I don't know maybe just

knock down the top the second floor I

don't I don't know that there's a

compromise between demolish and don't um

but you know I think that um to U some

of the other uh comments up here uh

maybe looking at different uses and if

that involves something that requires

zoning relief a variance or something

like that that the planning Bureau could

um lend its support to in a request

before the zoning hearing board you know

we'd be happy to do that um we're always

happy to uh hear ideas from people and

you know an event center um you know

small business incubator that

councilwoman RS was discussing you know

something like that I you know whether

the building works and you know uh kind

of in the applicant's uh defense too um

there may be different building code

requirements for doing some of that

stuff other than just an office so um

you know I think uh uh I would hope that

a compromise would uh see the building

maintained and actively reused but um

you know I think that's probably you

have a an architect here okay can I ask

you a couple I think you you might be

very very important at this point right

looking at uh reconfiguring that

building with the SM the space the small

ceilings did you have any other drawings

or any ideas of how they can redo this

building without taking it to the ground

and still making it

beneficial uh to the business yeah I

think that's something that I would want

to you know discuss and deliberate with

the with the owner to to kind

of it's really about working through

that the feasibility piece of it um

because some of those uses like an event

space would

probably require substantial parking as

well absolutely um you know I'm having

all these IDs go through my mind but

like a you know maybe a CO like a

co-working space and stuff like that

like still you're bringing a lot of

people to this property where um to to

really like fill both these buildings

with people you still got a parking

problem right right so so my question

not to cut you off but my question again

is not I mean not so much as looking at

a different business we all agree that

these are offices right so I'm talking

about a different design

without tearing it down you understand

what I'm saying right are you asking

like kind of like gutting the building

and redoing the inside yeah they give

you they give you the the functionality

that that you need but again I still

feel I understand your point with the

limited parking as well but did you did

you got and I know you're representing

uh ownership but is this something that

I'm sure you're an architect you can

figure out something right we we haven't

explored those options um but it like I

said it's something that we can discuss

and kind of work through the ideas and

what the implications would be on every

level of marketability the site um

architecturally and try to try to come

up with some kind of ideas at least

explore those options um so that we can

have a discussion about it for sure okay

I mean I just want to say too I've I've

kind of worked for um Mr cypriano and

the the different groups on some some of

the other buildings in Harrisburg here

and um I can tell like he he really does

want to bring

Rejuvenation um and so I'm excited about

that as an architect I like to see

Rejuvenation come and not dilapidation

and not I don't you know I don't

necessarily like to see buildings torn

down either um but I like to see

viable use that will bring that

Rejuvenation in um and

so that's that's my opinion and my last

thing um I think Mr Grover had to ask

him a question um uh this is a taxable

property for the city currently yes um

so just we make sure that we we we're

thinking about that as well would that

that would that knocking it down would

that take away from that I I don't know

that it would take away there would be

one that's building the tax but then the

Lots will be Consolidated and the

consolidation would have its own tax

effect so would it re revalue yeah so

but but why we're talking about that

come on I knew I would give you a segue

the

the the city's going to have to come to

terms with what is a very Stark reality

that's coming down the pike um we have

16 of the major properties in the city

office Towers under tax appeal right now

for significant significant

reductions um we got word that the

Commonwealth is not going to renew one

of their leases for the tallest building

in the city for 80% of the building that

at least expires next spring the city

the county and the school district have

jointly retained uh professional

appraisers because of the tax

appeals um and the reports that are

coming back because they're being given

access to the leases of the buildings

inside them they're giving access to the

buildings themselves is the buildings

are essentially empty their leases are

expiring there's no expectation for

renewals of many of these leases the the

amount of the property taxes that we're

trying to calculate out connected to

these properties is is significant and

this August we expect a larger influx of

those appeals for buildings that didn't

appeal this year um and so 26 or 27 one

of those years when all these start to

get to a resolution there is going to be

a significant loss to the city of

harrisburg's real estate taxes and not

just the city of Harrisburg it's it's a

it's a it's actually not even just a

national phenomenon it seems to be going

around the globe right now people after

covid have figured they don't have to be

in office towers and literally the

state's design tax design for cities is

to be dependent on real estate taxes so

it is a significant problem that's

coming I've talked with the mayor quite

a bit about it um no one so far has come

up with a a good idea but if this is an

office use I can tell you that there's

thousands of spaces that are going to be

empty and and I don't know you know

where you're going to be able to get

people to get into these buildings as

office uses this is the simple reality

of that we're all facing and uh um and

so I I I think Council should at least

be aware of that sort of framework of

when you're talking about is this really

doable we don't Frank I don't think that

I don't think they'll ever be able to Le

that as an office if they because they

can't lease the other ones as an office

and they are type a buildings that that

you know they're dropping the rents and

people aren't coming in um so you you

might be a very specialty thing in here

but but that's not what we're seeing uh

and and it's a problem that you know

frankly keeps me up at night uh so um

but that's the reality that's coming for

offices in in cities and and it's

something that a lot of people going

have to work on to try and find a

solution kind of piggyback on Mr

Grover's point I I I think that is the

reality for Mr cion is that if if you

can't use these buildings they're he's

going to have to file appeals on them

because he's not going to keep paying

taxes on on something that he can't use

right and these buildings are not like

the sasquan art museum Bank building or

the king mansion or these other

buildings that it's worth investing tens

hundreds of thousands of dollars in to

make them something new and fresh and

trendy and cool that people want to be a

part of these are architecturally

insignificant

buildings there's there's there's no

reason to to keep them around and so if

you can't use them for an office they're

going to sit next to my office at 100

Pine are the benmar apartments when

Harristown came in and and redid two

Office Buildings and turned them all

into apartment buildings those are

market rate Apartments those are

expensive Apartments because it costs a

lot of money to go in and renovate an

office building to turn it into an

apartment were to turn it into another

type of use and so if the building

doesn't have the size or the features to

make it attractive there's not a

property owner or developer around

that's that's going to put be able to

put the money into it to turn something

like that and that's why I think Mr gr's

you know point is is strong is that

that's why all these appeals are

happening and and and I think that's

what Mr cion eventually gets gets stuck

with uh if he has both

buildings all right I think that gives a

us a little Clarity on this so um thank

you guys and I'll be looking forward to

get some of that information um that

that my colleagues requested and look

over it and uh see what

happens thank you thank you everyone for

your questions and comments I will

prefer refer this um resolution to the

next legislative

session I just just really quick to Mr

is I just wanted to say really when you

said they weren't

significant um

I think every building is significant I

I do understand there's a there's a

issue here and um

it's not being used as um Mr seani would

like it to be and I understood what Mr

Grover is saying with the what happened

after the pandemic and how um a lot of

office spaces aren't going to be able to

be used but I didn't I don't think it's

not significant I think this building is

significant I just think it has to be

looked at a different way and I do

understand the the business part of it

the money part of it I don't want to

continue to pay for something that can't

be used so I I I understand that but I

do think um Co our world changed as we

we all know and I think it made us

become more creative in ways that we

never thought we would um and the way we

envision the world and what's happening

has to be different so I think

unfortunately we all have to look at

things differently I don't know what

else this space can be cuz I know we're

looking to get more information from you

um but I just didn't want you to go into

it thinking it wasn't significant

understood and I agree with you that

every building is significant what I

think I said or I intended to say was

these buildings are not architecturally

significant and I think there's an

important difference between the two

right when we're talking architecture

we're talking about the look and the

style okay thank you for clarifying that

thank you I appreciate I appreciate your

time coming in your presentation thank

you councilwoman Ross could I just add

to that really quick um sure the um

architect so there's a way to kind of

measure the architecturally significant

of a building um so there AR the

international style which was this

building was kind of built to imitate um

there's about 11 points um of features

that typical International style

features um this building has two and a

half of those uh features so I think

with our documentation maybe we could

get you that documentation as well to so

you can kind of measure

that um and consider it with all of your

considerations I think that would be

great thank you for that Enlightenment I

didn't know there was a point system and

what this building fell on so I think

that would be helpful along with the um

what Mr Knight presented because he had

some very valid points about why the

historic um the board denied it so I

think all of that information is so

important to put together to make such a

you know a a touchy decision

thank you very much appreciate your time

Council thank you you really quick

Council I think the main thing here and

we've been talking about all night is

we're tearing out a building to make

parking and while that is essentially

what you know the what what the the

Motions will be it is to create

viability for building that was built

that apparently has some you know some

historical or some kind of significant

value so it is kind of in a way to save

another

building that you know

otherwise is really useless if we if we

have to sit there we we we you know

that's that's the main part here it's

not just to create parking it's to

create viability in in another building

and get a reuse in there thank you for

that thank you thank you for that that

that part does make sense I I do

understand that I think that's what

makes it so difficult cuz we have the

facts but we also have the

understanding of what you all are saying

and when you do look at it I mean I do

understand that it the

parking does seem to be an issue it

looks very crowded but then it's it's

very hard with with the information that

we have that is so honest for Mr Knight

to just tear it down without seeing what

other options there are that's I think

that's the biggest piece I don't know

how much demo is going to cost what

other options could there be if not to

demo it so it's like I it's kind of like

blinding of okay you're just going to

tear it down what El could you do you

know it's just that part of it for

me thank you thank you all thank you

again and uh we will uh refer this to

the next legislative session thank

you thank you thank you our final commit

committee business this evening comes

from the parks recreation and enrichment

committee I will defer to our chair

councilwoman

Ros thank you president Bowers um

tonight for Parks and Recreation we have

resolution 37 of 2024 Mr Parker can you

please read it in yes resolution 37 of

2024 a resolution approving the disposal

and destruction of certain equipment

owned by the city of Harrisburg which

has exhausted its useful life for City

operations or has nominal value no value

or less value than than the disposal

costs thank you very much Mr Parker is

there anyone from Administration who

could please give us more Council more

information on resolution 37 of

2024 and if there is please state your

name and your position here with the

city good evening Council my name is

David Baker I'm the facilities director

for the city of Harrisburg um in front

of you we're requesting to dispose of um

multiple different items that have met

and far ex seeded their life expectancy

um some of those items are things such

as uh hood vents for the roof whenever

we've replaced them and and they're now

you know out of service with new ones uh

circulation pumps for water old ice

makers microwaves desks chairs um you

know fining cabinets You Name It We have

a multitude of different uh pieces of of

furniture and old uh pumps and equipment

and pulley and everything that are

sitting in uh storage right now waiting

to be disposed of um as long as we get

to go ahead then we will contact our

public works department they'll bring

out their clam truck and they'll take uh

any of the items that are uh able to be

taken to the recycling center to the

recycling center um once that occurs uh

the the funds from the recycling center

I think are uh sent directly to the uh

City Government Center the City

Treasurer's Office and then our finance

department decides whether they go into

a special fund or it goes into the

general fund for the

city if you have any questions though

please feel free I think we do have a

question already uh thank you I will not

make Mr Jones wait Mr Jones do you have

any questions councilman Jones how you

doing Mr Baker first of all I want to

make sure you're comfortable you all

right I'm good I'm ready to go home all

right just making sure you all right man

yeah we don't want to scare you yeah

n that was the joke but um I seen I read

through this already but so there is

some funds that can be made from at the

scrap metal then right correct yes all

right that's it that was only question

okay thank you yeah no that was yeah I

read through it too it looks um it's

very understandable instead of having

those items sit around and we can get

money from them um so I don't have any

questions I think it's a a very smart

and economic thing to do president

Bowers do you have any questions I don't

have any questions thank you um vice

president green thank you I don't have

any questions we do this all the time

so thank you um councilwoman Davis thank

you councilwoman Ross I saw the list and

the items are worth zero so they're

probably not worth very much either with

scrap metal so no more questions no

comments for me thank you you're welcome

and councilwoman Daniels do you have any

questions okay thank you um

I recommend that resolution 37 of 2024

be put on the next legislative

agenda and do you have to add anything

else Mr Baker thank you very much you're

welcome see we're easy thank

you we will now open the floor for

public comment uh just a few

housekeeping notes if there's anyone

that would like to offer public comment

please state your name and your address

for the meeting record if if you don't

feel comfortable sharing your address

please share the vicinity in which you

live within the city you'll have 4

minutes to share your comments and Mr

Parker will serve as our timekeeper I'll

begin to my right is there anyone that

would like to offer public

comment okay seeing and hearing no one

anyone in the middle

[Music]

section okay seeing and hearing no one

anyone to my left seeing and hearing no

one the time is set 11:15 p.m. I will

entertain a motion to adjourn so moved

is there a second thank you we stand a

journ