Harrisburg City Council Work Session - 12/09/2025

for your patience. As you know, we've

had ongoing technical issues. We spoke

about it last night. We are up and

running now. So, at 5:40 p.m., I'd like

to call our special legislative session

to order.

Mr. Truesdale, could you please call the

roll?

Ms. Daniels?

Here.

Ms. Davis? Present. Ms. Green? Present.

Mr. Jones? Here. Ms. Rawls? Present.

>> Mr. Rodriguez?

>> Present. Ms. Hill? Present. Thank you.

The invocation this evening will be led

by Councilwoman Davis, followed by the

pledge of allegiance, which will be led

by Councilman Jones. Councilwoman Davis.

Thank you, President Hill.

Good evening, everyone.

I like to reflect on the life of Delores

P. Lawson Ford today.

Delores Patricia Lawson Ford was born in

Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

on August 21st, 1945.

Delores was a lovely daughter of the

late Herman Lawson Sr. and Blanche

Jefferies Lawson.

She lived an eventful life until she

went home to be with the Lord on

December 2nd, 2025.

Her loving spirit will be greatly missed

by her entire family and countless

others who loved her dearly.

Delores received her formal education

and graduated from John Harris High

School in 1965

and had nursing training

and had nursing training. Delores worked

for the federal government in

Washington, D.C. and Harrisburg,

Pennsylvania.

She lived her life with a joyful heart.

She accepted Christ as her savior and

faithfully trusted God concerning the

cares of her daily life. She traveled

extensively throughout the United States

and to other places around the world.

Some of her favorite destinations were

the Caribbean Islands, South America,

and Africa. Even in her last days, you

could find her shopping and planning

other trips.

Delores was preceded in death by her

beloved siblings, Lula Lawson and Larry

E. Lawson Sr. She is survived by her

devoted brothers, Dr. Herman Lawson Jr.,

Judy, Robert Lawson Sr., Margie, her

loving sisters,

Gloria Bright, Shirley Lawson, and Elma

Jean Scott, and a whole host of caring

friends, nieces, nephews, cousins, and

extended family members who will forever

cherish and honor her memory.

I would also like to take a moment of

silence to remember the families who

were affected by fires over the last

week here in the city of Harrisburg. And

let's hold that moment, please.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilwoman Davis.

Councilman Jones?

Please rise.

Pledge allegiance

Thank you, Councilman Jones. We do not

have any communications this evening.

We will now open the floor to courtesy

of the floor. Please note there are a

few housekeeping

notes before we begin. Please state your

name and your address for the meeting

record. If you don't feel comfortable

sharing that your address, please share

the vicinity in which you live within

the city. You will have 4 minutes to

share your comments. Mr. Truesdale has

added a timer to the screen for your

reference, and I will begin to my right.

Is there anyone that would like to offer

public comment?

Good evening, council members. Good

evening. I'm Tyrone Smith.

Excuse me, do you mind

holding the microphone closer to you or

moving it the base up?

>> house. It must be deep in my

belly. I mean You're fine. Thank you.

>> Um my name is Tyrone Smith. I live at

2017 Swatara Street, Harrisburg, PA.

I own I'm here on behalf of AFSCME,

the uh union coming. What I'm asking for

is

I understand that everybody works hard

for the city.

And we're here

waiting for the city. Everybody deserves

a raise. All I'm asking is to take into

consideration

the proposal we proposed to the

committee.

And just please just

with a little dignity and respect, just

look at it seriously cuz I love my city.

I work hard for my city. My guys work

hard for the city.

All we're asking is please just

take into consideration

um

We're not asking much.

Excuse me. I said we're not. So, and I I

get it.

I know fin- financially

it's a big thing.

But

we work hard for the city.

And we make the city look really good,

all of us.

That's all I'm asking.

All right. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Is there anyone else to my right that

would like to offer public comment?

Good evening, Council. My name is Brian

Kiesling. I live in Midtown.

Uh to cut to the chase, a few hours ago

the city of Harrisburg posted across its

social media that Mayor Williams met

today with the Deputy Consul General of

the State of Israel here in Harrisburg.

Uh to put it bluntly, this is the

equivalent of meeting with a diplomat

from Nazi Germany in 1944.

As this council is aware, last year the

mayor put her thumb on the scale behind

the scenes to kill a ceasefire

resolution. So, her support for the

ongoing genocide of the Palestinian

people is not a surprise. However, it is

still an outrage to host this war

criminal here in our city.

But beyond the moral outrage, it is also

a public safety issue.

It should alarm every resident of this

city that Commissioner Carter and Deputy

Police Chief Young were at this meeting

and that this post talked about a

partnership with the government of

Israel. She used the word partnership.

Many of you may be aware that the deadly

exchange is the program where Israel and

the United States send police to each

others countries for training. American

police go there and learn brutal tactics

that are inflicted on Palestinians. They

bring them home here and inflict those

tactics on Americans,

disproportionately

black members of our community. So, we

need full transparency from the mayor's

office about what they discussed at this

meeting, whether the partnership

involves the Harrisburg Police

Department that they're alluding to,

whether or not this deadly exchange is

going to come to Harrisburg, whether

it's going to involve surveillance

technology, whether it's going to

involve tactics that inflict violence on

our community.

We need Mayor Williams to apologize for

hosting a war criminal in our city, and

we need her to work to repair the harm

that has been consistently inflicted on

members of the community

on this particular issue. I also ask

that the city council call for the mayor

to do those things and that this council

publicly disavow inviting a war criminal

into our city. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Is there anyone else to my right that

would like to offer public comment?

Okay.

Seeing hearing no one, anyone in the

middle section?

Okay, seeing hearing no one, anyone to

my left?

Okay, seeing and hearing no one, we will

move forward with our meeting agenda.

Next, we have ordinances for first

reading. We have one ordinance, Bill 15

of 2025. Mr. Truesdale, could you please

read it into the record?

Bill 15, 2025, an ordinance amending

Chapter 2-701,

compensation of elected officials of

Title 2, Administrative Code, to adjust

the compensation of elected officials of

the City of Harrisburg.

Thank you. Bill 15 of 2025 will move to

the Administration Committee.

We do not have any ordinances for

amendment or ordinances for final

passage. We have one resolution,

resolution 92 of 2025.

Mr. Truesdale, could you please read it

into the record? Resolution 92 2025, a

resolution approving, adopting, and

placing into immediate effect the

Dolphin County 2025 emergency operations

plan as the official emergency

operations plan of the city of

Harrisburg. Thank you. Resolution 92 of

2025 will move to the public safety

committee. Is there any old business for

discussion, council members?

Okay, seeing and hearing none, any new

business?

Seeing and hearing none, the time is

5:50 p.m.

I will entertain a motion to adjourn our

special legislative session.

>> So moved. Is there a second?

I second that. Thank you. We stand

adjourned.

We will move

to our work session. The time is 5:50

p.m. I would like to call our work

session to order.

Mr. Truesdale, could you please call the

roll? Ms. Daniels?

Here.

Ms. Davis?

Present. Ms. Green? Present. Mr. Jones?

Here.

Ms. Rolls? Present. Mr. Rodriguez?

>> Present. Ms. Hill? Present.

We will begin our committee business

this evening with the work of the

administration committee. We have one

bill and two resolutions for discussion.

We will begin with bill 15 of 2025.

Mr. Truesdale, could you please read it

into the record?

Bill 15 2025,

an ordinance amending chapter 2-701

compensation of elected officials of

title 2 administrative code to adjust

the compensation of the elected

officials of the city of Harrisburg.

Thank you.

Whom from the administration is present

to discuss bill 15 of 2025?

Good evening.

Good evening.

So, you want me to just get started?

Sure, you're welcome to get started.

Okay, so

>> could please provide an overview of bill

15 of 2025.

Uh yes, this was put forth by the mayor.

This affects all elected officials

within the city of Harrisburg, including

council,

the mayor herself, the county the city

controller, and also the city treasurer.

Uh

what it does is it

Uh the last time any kind of raise was

done, I believe, was in 2005.

Um

And so, the current pay has been set for

about 20

about 20 years. Uh so, it's a

Uh amounts to 25% total increase, but if

you look at it from an annual

perspective, it amounts to about 1.1%.

Um

And if you look at it also from a um

perspective from other third-class

cities, uh Harrisburg is one of the

lower-paid

uh municipalities or cities within

Pennsylvania. And I have a spreadsheet

to to demonstrate that. Um

The raises themselves were the $5,000

uh for city council members, and it

would it would affect the

in your next term. And four of you have

your next term starting in January.

The county controller, her her term

starts in January, also, so it'll affect

her. The city treasurer would be

would be 2 years from now when that term

expires and a new person or the same

person gets reelected. And

it would affect the mayor in January cuz

she was up for election this year. So,

that's how that would work. Um

Um just just give an example, just some

of the other places

that we checked and did a comparison. Um

Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Um third-class

city, and their current salary in 2026

is going to be $98,000.

Allentown, Pennsylvania.

Um

their 2025 salary was $95,000.

Easton, Pennsylvania.

Uh 2025 salary was $104,996.

Uh Lancaster City,

uh 2026 salary was $105,539.

Uh Reading, Pennsylvania. Their salary

for 2024 was $90,750.

Uh Erie, Pennsylvania. Their salary is

$95,000.

And Lebanon, Pennsylvania, which is

actually smaller than than us, was

$86,000

$270. So, you can see where

you know, all those communities are all

higher than Harrisburg itself. So, um

So, it's your your pay. You can do you

guys do what you want, uh but just gives

you an idea of what we looked at when we

made a determination of of offering an

increase.

Okay, thank you.

Uh just for everyone's reference,

um

the last adjustment was made by the

passage of ordinance number five of 2025

and ordinance number six

of 2025.

I'm just reading the

um bill.

The third-class city code requires that

any adjustment to the compensation of

elected officials may only take effect

at the start of a new term of office.

The mayor and council of the city of

Harrisburg desires to change the

salaries of elected officials of the

city of Harrisburg compensating

or excuse me, commencing the next term

of each office.

I would like to note that as Mr.

Sokolowski mentioned in our interim

business administrator,

this was the mayor's interest.

Um my question, I don't think this is

one that you can answer. I think this is

more suited for solicitor Grover.

What prompted Mayor Williams to request

a $20,000 raise prior to beginning her

second term in office?

I think it has been discussed, frankly,

in this chamber and in the mayor's

office for years.

Um and I try to be candid with my

assessment of things. I've understood uh

various council members over the years

have made the inquiry, various elected

officials over the years have made the

inquiry. And basically, it was just

picking a number. It wasn't There wasn't

a magic kind of formula to it. It is,

frankly, more We recognize the political

difficulty for elected officials voting

for raises. It's It's It's a difficult

thing. And uh and for the mayor to

introduce it, it would be another 4

years because the mayor is the one who

tends to introduce these. Uh and, you

know, 20 years had gone by. Before that,

it had been a 6-year window when between

raises. Before that, it had been a

13-year window between raises. Um so, uh

and the last active thing that happened

regarding an ordinance on compensation

to an elected official was under

receivership, which stripped um the

mayor's office out of the police pension

plan. Um that was voted on in December

of 2013. That was the last vote on

anything related to

uh compensation for elected officials.

Um state law makes clear that you can't

change compensation in the middle of a

term.

You know, that's not just here, that's

pretty much everywhere. So, it's got to

be done on a basis where it starts. Some

of the more strict things have a

different timetable than the city's

under, where it's this advance of

advertising ahead of certain points in

an election cycle. That has not been the

interpretation of the optional

third-class city code or the city code

for the entire 50 years that we've been

under it. Um so, we've had two December

votes as part of the budget process in

order to change things related to

compensation. Uh we've had an April vote

at one point in the past. So, uh the

uh but it is plainly within the sound

discretion of the council if they think

that is appropriate. Um you know, our

office, when asked, has always advised

it should be a proposal for all elected

officials if it's going to be a proposal

at all. That would seem the fair thing

to do and not pick one or two offices

and do one or two offices. Um so, uh I'm

not sure that answers your question, but

there is not a

a magic let's pick this number. It It

was

>> No, you answered the question. It was

mainly I was trying to gain clarity on

timing. That was my This is the third

time I've drafted that piece of

legislation in in since 2014. The

requests have come before, no one had

the

final decision to bring it forth and put

it on in the agenda.

Interesting. Okay.

Um

I don't think I have any other questions

at this point, not that you would be

able to answer. So, I'm going to open

the floor to my colleagues who may have

some additional questions. I'd like to

begin to my left with Councilman Jones.

Any questions?

Um

yes, thank you, President Hill. Uh,

I really don't have any questions, um,

but I just want to put on the record

that I will not be supporting, um, this,

um, resolution or this bill.

Um, reason being, um, I spoke to this

yesterday.

Um, though, um, I respect my colleagues,

I respect the work that you guys do, I

respect, um, the administration and the

work. However,

um, I just I I have a problem with our

process.

Our process is is flawed.

The way that we do conduct business in

city government with other, um, entities

that come into the city, I believe it's

flawed. We write laws,

um, that are not being followed by us.

And for that, I don't think that, um,

I can support this bill. Um,

again, this is not personal towards

anyone, this is just where I stand, um,

with this, um,

I look at the city of Harrisburg and the

conditions today. I'm also concerned

with the sustainability of these raises,

knowing that, um,

we're a distressed city at this moment.

Um, though our budgets may look balanced

and all of that, honestly, I just don't

see how we can sustain, um,

if someone maybe can explain that to me,

how we can sustain this, but, um,

there's no way that I can support this

bill until we correct our process. And,

um,

that's where I stand.

Thank you.

Thank you. Councilwoman Rodriguez, any

questions related to Bill 15? Uh, thank

you, Madam President. Um,

thank you, Mr. Sokalski, for joining us

this evening. Um, no no real questions.

I've, uh, actually sat with, um, Mr. Sam

and we've had discussions, as well as

the mayor's office.

And I do understand the sentiments of

Councilman Jones's and a lot of other,

as far as our residents and people in

the city's concerns, but I just want to

remind that, you know, especially with

this body of council, we've legislated

through some of the hardest times that

our city's seen, COVID. I remember

sitting in this very chamber with masks

on, where our lives were at risk at one

point. Government shutdowns, and we do

have families as well, and although we

get paid for a part-time position, I

just want to remind all that our phones

do not stop ringing. Our phones are

full-time and it's on go, usually around

the clock. So, I do want to be sensitive

and realize it may not be sustainable,

but once again, these are questions I

may not be able to ask, but I do

understand how we would try to, you

know, get this legislation passed and

to, uh, Grover, um, Solicitor Grover's

point, um, I do and I am aware that this

has been attempted quite a few times. It

just never got the legs to actually be

passed and go through. So, those are my

only sentiments to it, but I do

understand, I overstand a lot of our

residents' concerns. Uh, with 20% it is

extreme, um, or it can be looked at, but

I've always looked at why a lot of our

directors are making more than the

mayor. I just never saw a sense with

that. Um, and, uh, same thing with

council, it's just it's a position where

you really can't put a price on it, and

I just hope and pray that the residents

feel we would be fair with the numbers

that's in front of us this evening. So,

those are just my only sentiments with

it, um, but I do understand the

sensitivity with it and how it could be

looked at either way. So, thank you all.

Thank you. Councilwoman Ross, any

questions related to Bill 15? Yes, thank

you, President Hill. Um, I was

wondering, Mr. Sokalski, I heard you

give the, um,

competitive wages of other mayors, um,

in different third-class cities. I was

wondering if you had the information for

the controller, treasurer, or their

council members. I do, actually. Um,

which do you want all of them? Do you

want I would, yes, so the public can

hear as well, because I think that's

also important to see what the

competitive wages are in the other

third-class cities, not just what the

mayors are.

Uh, we'll just go with controller.

Allentown, the salary was

But you also have to understand, some of

these controllers

and treasurers are maybe full-time

positions. Well, you can note that. You

can say it ours is

>> I don't I don't know off the top of my

head whether they are or not, so

>> Uh, so

just give me what you got. So, I'll give

you the salary for controllers. So,

Allentown is 75,998.

Uh, Bethlehem is 49,000. Chester is

50,000. Easton is 22,389.

Erie is 38,000. Lancaster is 8,500.

Wilkes-Barre is 60,699.

Williamsport is 46,038.

York is 20,000.

So, that's the all the controllers.

Uh, treasurers I have four or five.

Um, Bethlehem,

uh, the treasurer is 2,200. Erie is

48,000. Lancaster is 8,500. Williamsport

is 25,625

and York is 50,000. Uh, city council,

uh, Allentown, 15,000. Um, Altoona,

5,000. Bethlehem, 10,650.

Chester is 52,500. Explain why they're

in financial

difficulties, but

What was theirs again? 52,500.

And that was Chester?

>> Chester.

Cuz you didn't name them for mayors. I

think you named different ones for

mayors and different ones for council,

treasurer, and controller.

>> of them are overlapping and some of them

are not.

>> Okay. Um,

let's see. Easton was 93,

70 For council? For council, yeah. All

the remaining ones are all for council.

Um, Erie was 12,000. Hazleton was 3,850.

Lancaster was 8,000. Lebanon was 2,726.

Reading was 6,250

08, and Wilkes-Barre was 13,199.

Williamsport was 3,000, and York was

10,000.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you. That's all the questions I

have.

Oh, I'm sorry. Would you be able to

email us that information, too? Sure.

Thank you. We also have averages and all

that kind of stuff on here, too, so I

would love that sheet. That would be

great.

Thank you. Thank you. Vice President

Green, any questions on Bill 15? Thank

you, President Hill. Um,

not many questions. Can you hear me? All

right. Not many questions. Um, I guess

just kind of looking at overarching,

we're talking about a total increase,

um,

of between council and the mayor of

55,000.

And if you add in treasurer

and controller, about 65,000 per year?

But that wouldn't be over a multiple

year period of time, because

I think the first year would be

4 or 5, 25, 45,000.

Then the remaining,

um,

three members, 20,000 would be

in 19 or 2028.

So, that wouldn't all occur in all one

shot.

Okay.

Thank you. Um, I guess just kind of

looking at it from an overarching

standpoint, um,

I'm I'm trying No, I'm just trying to

think of how to say it. Um,

there for our elected officials do put a

lot of time and a lot of effort into it,

um, and there there has been

conversations about this for multiple

years. I remember sitting up here from

pretty much the time I started council

until now, uh, and the conversation

constantly goes around of, uh, you know,

it's been over 10 years, 15 years, 20

years since there's been any increase to

the elected officials, um,

salaries. So, it's not like this is a

new conversation. Uh, I guess this is

the first time that it's really been

brought down, uh, but then I kind of

look at so many positions that go

unfilled for so long throughout the

year, uh, and how much our budget is

underspent in so many lines throughout

the year, uh, that when you kind of put

it in perspective like that, uh, we do

know these positions are working, uh,

throughout the year. So, um, and in that

effort, I would say, you know, just kind

of think about everything in the the

entire picture, um, in our entire

budget, and kind of look at some of the

other ways that that we should, uh,

be

making sure we're being fiscally

responsible with our money. So, that's

kind of just my thought right there. Um,

and I guess the conversation continues,

so.

Thank you. Councilwoman Davis, any

questions on Bill 15? Thank you,

President Hill.

No, I would just like to see the

information that you have, Mr. Sokalski,

and then, uh, take a look overall

of what's going on with, um, you know,

the finances, the unfilled, uh,

positions, and

different things going on in the city

before I could make a decision.

So, that's all for me.

Thank you. And I would just note on the

city council salaries, some third-class

cities, instead of having a annual

salary, have a per meeting pay,

per diem, like some boards do. So, on

those you may see a higher or lower

number because of that, but they had the

option at the beginning, when they set

it up, to do it one way or the other.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Daniels, any questions

related to Bill 15?

Yeah, um,

so, did you pull out the municipalities

that had a similar population?

Um,

sure, I have the population here. Uh,

for example, Altoona has a population of

44,000.

Uh, their mayor was getting paid 75,000.

Um,

Lancaster has 58,000 population. Um,

their salary was

Well, this is a I think the previous

year was 103 085. I think it's a little

higher than that.

I think some of the Some of these have

like a cost of living increase per year

because I looked at Lancaster for 2026

and they were at 105, 539.

Um

See, Wilkes-Barre has a population of

44,000

and their salary for uh mayor is 82,400.

Uh York had a population of 44,800

and their salary was at 75,000.

So, those are the ones that are similar

in size.

Okay. Thank you. And um how much What's

the long-term cost in terms of pension

for the the cost of these increases?

I don't think you have anything to do

with the pension at all, do they?

They do. Okay. Yeah. It does.

>> Yeah, I mean our pension from my our

pensions are calculated off of the last

year's income. I don't have that

information.

>> 80,000.

>> I didn't do that calculation, so I don't

have that answer, so.

Okay. I think it'd be good to know what

it would end up costing because um I

think

let's see. I am vested in fact this

doesn't apply to me, but I'm vested in

pension, the mayor is vested in pension.

Um I don't think there are any other

council members vested, uh but they will

There are quite a few that will vest in

the next election cycle. So, those

expenses should be taken into account.

Okay.

>> Um

And uh

Yeah, I think that's really Those Those

are just my questions. I think we should

you know, the compensation should be

comparable to other cities of the same

size. Um

uh So, I think that's where we should be

looking at. Um

and I also I mean, I think the reality

is we know that

our tax base is our ability to collect

taxes will be going down pretty soon. Um

so, we need to be very conservative. Um

you know, I don't Yeah, so that's just

generally speaking. So, if you could

just email me the information on

municipalities of a comparable size,

that would be great.

Thank you. Are there any other questions

related to Bill 15 of 2025?

Councilwoman Ross.

>> Yes, I just have one. I I would agree

with um

Councilwoman uh Daniels about just

knowing what's the pension rate

um and seeing what other cities are have

the same uh amount of same population as

we do and what that compensation is.

Um

My other question was how many terms you

need to be vested for the pension? Does

anybody know that? I thought it was

three, but I don't know if I'm wrong or

>> It's It's 10 years, so

>> 10 years. Okay.

>> um for example, Mayor Williams, cuz she

held different roles, would be vested if

she participated. Mr. Miller

>> council and then And Mr. Miller would be

vested if he participated. I think Ms.

Daniels is the only current council

member who who would be vested. But it's

But it's 10 years for anyone

participating in that

that pension plan. Okay. Thank you very

much for that information.

Um

I I think

I mean, just a quick comment because I

still need to process everything. I

think for me it's just the

the large raise of it, 5,000

and then we're going from 80,000 to

100,000. We're like um other cities I

heard like are 82,000.

Um so, it's like I don't know why it's

not moving up like in increment steps

instead of like such a a large jump. I

do understand that there is um

the cost of living is increasing.

And um

I understand the mayor or

administrator's pay is not um council's

is not, but um I'm my fear is we just

got out of financial trouble. And um we

all took these positions knowing what

the pay was and not really going

um I know for myself, I can't speak for

everybody up here, but it wasn't about

the pay for me, but what the city

needed. And it's hard for me to ask for

a raise when I know there are residents

that are hurting and aren't receiving

that and this is taxpayers' money and we

just got out of financial trouble. Um

so, that's I I really just I would love

to see the sheet. Um

I think I need more conversation and

just making sure we're doing the right

thing um

financially for our budget. So, that's

it for me.

>> I can mention something on the

inflation, the average inflation

generally looks at 2.7%

somewhere in that neighborhood. And I

said the 25% seemed like a large bump,

but over a 20-year period, it's only

like 1.1%.

So, you're only keeping up with like

less than half of what the inflation

rate is. So, when you were elected 20

years ago, that dollar is not buying

It's probably worth 80 cents on a dollar

now, so

um except again, it's your your

decision. It's your salaries and we're

just putting it out there and giving you

an opportunity to vote on it. That's

all.

Thank you. Well, as the interim acting

business administrator

and you do help make those tough

decisions and what's best for the

budget, what is your opinion?

I don't have an opinion because

So, honestly, I don't. Cuz this does not

affect me at all, so But it affects our

city that you are interim acting

business administrator of. So, you as

that I don't know your whole job

description. Well, I do, but

one of the pieces of it is for you to

help the mayor make decisions that are

good for the city. The The business

administrator position is very important

in a school district, in a city. They

are almost mainly sometimes above the

mayor in the sense of making decisions

cuz the mayor comes to you. They're like

their you're her confidant. You help her

make good decisions for the city. So, if

you don't have an opinion on it, I'm

very nervous about this bill. Well, it's

a It's a It's a political question and I

try not to

>> Not really. It's a question for the

budget. It's a question of saying is

this a sound decision for our budget?

And And you're talking about a $45,000

effect to the budget, which is I mean,

I've been an auditor for many, many

years and they say if you're under a

certain amount of money, it's sort of

inconsequential. And from what from

when you're looking at a $90 million

budget, 45,000 is not that much of

consequence.

Thank you for your opinion, Mr.

Selkoski. I appreciate That's it for me.

Thank you. Councilman Jones. Yeah, um

I'll just add to that that, you know, um

we are dealing with our taxpayers' money

and um we should spend it accordingly.

Um though um I do think that people

should deserve raises, the people do

deserve raises. Um but to Councilwoman

Ross's point, um we knew the job was

hard when we took it.

Um you know, I think the the over um

overall sentiment is that

uh

we have a lot of issues in the city of

Harrisburg. And to And to to to For me,

I just can't enrich myself in when we're

in a position. Could I use extra 5K?

Absolutely. Um other people have

full-time jobs. This is a part-time job

on paper, but it's full-time work.

I do this every day, all day. And of

course, I could use the extra money. I

have children and grandchildren, you

know, but again, I'm just looking at the

state of our city. Is this the right

time? Um

Is this the right time? And I'm really

into I mean, again, I don't know how

this is going to go, but I'm willing to

revisit this at a later date um once um

we can get on one accord. And that's

what I mean about um fixing our process.

We're not on the same accord when a lot

of things come down. I think we should

um be able to have more conversations,

um administration council. There's only

certain council members that get to

speak with the administration. Um some

of us are ignored and um until we can

fix that process,

yeah, I'm I'm I'm definitely not going

to be voting yes. So, that's all I have,

uh Council President. Thank you. Thank

you. Are there any other questions,

comments, or concerns related to Bill

15?

Councilwoman Davis. Thanks, President

Hill.

20 years is a long time for anyone to

not have a raise. But to Councilman

Rodriguez's sentiments, um

elected officials are

receiving calls. We're We're basically

full-time

workers.

I didn't run for office for a paycheck.

Um because I already have a paycheck.

Um I wanted to serve the community.

That's why I'm here.

So, it $5,000

it's not going to break me or make me

either way.

But I also understand that for

elected officials who are full-time,

they are really full-time. I mean,

I don't know what the hours are during

the day. I would imagine a 9:00 to 5:00

and then after hours with phone calls

and everything else that goes on

for the full-time elected officials who

have been

uh serving this community for

15, 20 years.

I've been here just about 2 years. So,

again,

I'm not concerned about the raise.

But I am concerned that the people who

deserve it get it.

And I know that all of us work hard and

our full-time elected officials

work harder.

Thank you.

Thank you. Any other questions,

comments, or concerns related to Bill

15?

Okay, seeing and hearing none.

I would like to

table the bill momentarily

where it will remain in committee until

we receive the document that you had

that discussed some municipalities

in terms of their mayoral compensation

and some municipalities related to their

city council compensation. I don't think

it was very clear.

You noted different municipalities

during the second portion of the line of

questioning than you did the first one.

So, I think it would be easier if we

could see it.

Maybe it would have been a better

conversation that way. So, I will

keep this bill in committee until all

outstanding or outside information that

was shared here this evening is shared

with council for their review.

Thank you. Thank you. Next, we have

Resolution 86 of 2025. Mr. Truesdale,

could you please read it into the

record?

Resolution 8

Resolution 86 2025. Resolution

authorizing the City of Harrisburg to

negotiate and enter into a professional

services contract with Steve Zimmerman

to provide access and services on the

city's historical mainframe programming

operations and related services in the

Bureau of Information Technology.

Thank you. Mr. Bortner.

This is a resolution that we are all

familiar with, but if you wouldn't mind

taking a moment just to remind everyone

who you are, your capacity, and provide

an overview of Resolution 86, please.

Sure. Good evening, City Council. I'm

Steve Bortner, IT Director.

Um, so this resolution is similar to

ones we've had in previous years and

it's to continue the personal services

agreement with Steve Zimmerman for 2026.

Uh, Steve's a retired

uh city employee. He was a former IT

Director. And he's been operating in

this capacity for quite a few years. Um,

he assists with the day-to-day

operations of the IT Bureau and he

fulfills many of the right-to-know

requests

uh for data that resides on the

mainframe.

Um, he has a broad knowledge of the

historical data and uh processes that

are utilized within those systems and

that knowledge has been helpful as we

attempt to export the data from the

mainframe to migrate to the Munis

system.

Uh, the only difference between last

year's agreement and this year's

agreement is the hourly rate. Um, it uh

the hourly rate this this year is $100

and the hourly rate proposed for next

year is $115

per hour, but the total amount of the

contract remains the same at 120,000.

Um, and through the end of November of

this current contract, um we've paid

$100,350

with one invoice remaining for the rest

of the year.

So, that's my uh summary overview and

thank you and I'll turn it back to you

for questions. Thank you very much. I

just have one question. I think I asked

you this every year, too, but how long

do we anticipate the need for Mr.

Zimmerman's services? Um

So, last night I presented that the uh

mainframe away from the migration should

be done by the end of 2026 with the need

to reference it through mid-2027.

So, um

at this time last year I thought this

would be a

partial year, but unfortunately it's

not. So, I would anticipate uh 2026

being a full year and 2027 a partial

year.

Okay, thank you. I don't have any other

questions. I'll open the floor to my

colleagues who may have additional

questions for you. I'll begin to my far

right this time with Councilwoman

Daniels. Do you have any questions

related to Resolution 86?

No, thank you. Thank you. Councilwoman

Davis, any questions? No, no questions.

>> Okay. Vice President Green, any

questions? Uh, it's good to see you, but

I don't have any questions for you.

Thank you. Councilwoman Ross, any

questions? Good evening, Director

Bortner. I don't have any questions.

Thank you. Councilman Rodriguez, any

questions?

>> Thank you, Madam President. Good to see

you, Mr. Bortner. No questions for me.

Thank you. Councilman Jones, any

questions? Thank you. No questions.

Thank you. Well, thank you for being

here. I move to add Resolution 86 of

2025

to our next legislative session agenda

for a formal vote.

The final resolution for discussion with

the Administration Committee is

Resolution 89 of 2025.

Mr. Truesdale, could you please read it

into the record? Resolution 89 2025. A

resolution approving the extension of

the Broad Street Market lease and

management agreement the City of

Harrisburg and the Broad Street Market

Alliance.

Thank you. Um, who from the

administration is present to discuss

Resolution 89 of 2025?

Uh, I believe that will be me this

evening, Madam uh President. Um,

we are all familiar with the current

status of the Broad Street Market, the

renovation that is going on because of

the fire. Um, the contract that uh was

originally

um

approved some years back expired and by

its terms moved to a month-to-month term

and has been in that status for quite a

long time.

Um, the uh

organization, the Broad Street Market

Alliance, has received a state grant for

renovations to the stone building and

the grant requires proof of a longer

lease than a month-to-month so they know

that they have control of the property

while they're doing the renovations. So,

what we had proposed is simply to extend

the current lease formally out for

December 31st of next year and then to

sit down with members of the city, the

market, and other interested parties

about what the long-term design of it.

Um and it is very much for the purpose

of getting through the grant that is

there and utilizing those funds that are

needed for the stone building.

Um, and those funds will do a

a little bit for the stone building, but

you know, it's it's it's a few hundred

thousand dollars and the cost of

buildings this old to bring them up to

date is extraordinary as you know. Um,

and a long-term plan for the Broad

Street Market is needed uh by the city,

by third parties,

uh and

I think this is the impetus to get that

done. Um, their board is voting tomorrow

night. You know, and I and

um you know,

I believe a draft was sent to them

today, but it's a very simple simple

extension to the end of the year. And

what the real work is to sit back at the

table and work this out. I will note I

was in a meeting in 2022 with the then

president and one of the board members

and

a new proposal was coming trying to find

a better way to make it work and that

proposal never showed up because it is a

difficult problem to solve. Um, the city

does not have a line of taxes or other

revenue to pay for the

ongoing cost of the physical plant of

those facilities. The board as a manager

of it really can't come up with a source

of revenue to do that and those are the

problems that have to be solved

long-term.

Um, so

that is you know, we went with the mayor

as this is a way to do it and bring

people back to the table and have people

put, you know, their their shoulder to

it and try to come up with a solution as

I believe you know cuz you're on the

board. So, yes. So, um

the uh

with that, you know, that that is really

no more complicated than that. This is

the what is necessary uh

to access the funding that's available.

Okay, thank you for the updates and yes,

I am well aware.

Um

I guess my only question would be

if this current agreement is extended

through December of next year, when will

great minds come together to discuss a

solution? We were asked to schedule a

meeting starting in January. Okay.

>> That's what the request was and the

mayor has to designate who's going to do

that. Okay.

>> Um, we have had third-party inquiries of

people wanting to be of assistance. Um,

again, the mayor would have to talk

about it with the association about who

else is in that. I would respectfully

suggest neither the city nor the

association has a lock on the good ideas

on how to solve this problem. So, the

better the more people with ideas,

probably the better. Okay. And so, that

if the meetings begin in January, was

there any discussion as to how frequent

they would occur? No, I think you have

to figure out what what what the

objective of the group is, right? But

the objective is to get to the

long-terms long-term sustainability

Right.

>> of the property. Um, that is the

objective. My concern is with extending

this another year that

we'll be back here next December with

another extension. That's my concern

since it hasn't

>> Well, well, I will note the term in the

agreement is it goes to month-to-month

if it expires, right? And so,

um and I think I wrote a very colorful

email this year or last year to the

board

one of the board members and their

directors about

the city is painfully aware

that we're on a month-to-month

arrangement and the city is in no

position to take over the management of

that. So, it's in everyone's interest to

get to a solution. Like many public

problems, the solution part that's hard

is is the source of revenue.

That's that's the hard part. And uh

um you know, but now seems like the

appropriate time as we're literally

investing what we're investing to bring

the brick building back

uh from where it is. And it's a time of

high interest in its long-term

sustainability. So, it seems like the

right time to have people at the table

and ideas on how to do it. I would

suggest the idea

is something different than we have now.

That would be my own professional

opinion.

I hope it is, too.

Um I would like to see the actual

reporting

come to fruition. That was something

that I've been asking about since maybe

2022

when this soon after this expired. I

began asking about the reporting

mechanism that's built in because it

never occurred.

So, to be frank

the agreement is nicely written and it

didn't work at all. Right? I mean, it

kept the building open, it kept the

market open, but in terms of the

association and the city having a

mechanism, you know, it didn't work and

it it didn't work because of money. I

mean, that that

to have someone reporting on a regular

basis means someone

has the money to do the work and do the

reporting. And and simply telling

someone that's their job and they're out

there, you know, worrying about how the

floor is getting swept, you know, that

is not really a way to get things done.

I mean, that's the reality. The boards

are all volunteers, right? And and you

know, sometimes lots of people

participate, sometimes very few

participate. Um that structure doesn't

work very well.

Um and you know, that's where I think

just grown-ups have to sit down at the

table and decide, you know, how is this

going to work? What's the best idea

people have moving forward? But

other than the fact that the market

stayed open and kept serving people, in

terms of on that part it worked. On the

fixing the long-term capital issues and

raising money, all those other ideas and

technical reporting, it did not work.

And um and that that's the simple

reality of it.

Okay, thank you. I don't have any other

questions. I'm going to open the floor

to my colleagues who may have additional

questions. This time I'd like to begin

with Councilwoman Rawls. Any questions?

Uh thank you, uh President Hill. My

question was the same as yours as, you

know, what um was the mechanism after we

extended? Um just making sure we're

being proactive and we're not waiting

for the

10th hour to to for us to approve

something after this extension, but um

we'll see what happens and um but that

was my question as well. So, thank you.

Thank you. Councilman Rodriguez, any

questions?

>> Thank you, Madam President. Um thank

you, Solicitor Grover, for that um

information.

As we all know, extensions are pretty

much just temporary solutions, band-aids

over the problem. And

as we all would love to see that brick

building get back to its best state,

it's beautiful bringing people in for

tourism and it generates a lot of money

for the city. As you guys are all aware,

everyone's aware of that. So, I'm pretty

sure I I I

I speak for the body when we say we

would love

to see that brick-and-mortar building

back up running, bringing in revenue for

the city. It's just how do we get there?

And um it's just concerning because what

if

quote unquote that conversation doesn't

begin and we're just looking for another

extension December 31st, 2026 and so on

and so forth. So,

uh

hopefully, you know, those conversations

start sooner than later.

Um

and I just can't

state enough that, you know, I just look

forward to seeing the Broad Street

Market open, fully operational with

those vendors back in that brick

building just thriving. So, thank you

for being here and giving us that

information. Nothing further, Madam

President. Thank you. Councilman Jones,

any questions? Uh yes, my question would

be around um the tent.

The temporary tent. Mhm. Um since we're

talking about finances again,

uh what is the city currently paying or

what are we anticipated to pay as long

as this tent is there?

Off the top of my head, I don't know.

It's but but we can get you that. It's

it's a written lease for both. The tent

is one lease, the heating system is a

second separate lease, and the land is a

third lease. I mean, so there's three

long-term expenses that go on with that.

I think it's $5,000 a month.

Then in 2026, it'll be 6,500 a month.

And I'm not sure what the 2027 is

supposed to be the completion.

>> But that's not all three of them. That's

just one of the three leases.

>> That's a lot of money. So, how how is

this

>> I'm aware. Listen, I'm just My question

is again, how how is how would this part

affect that if without the extension or

with the extension, how would that

affect us taxpayers' money being spent

on this temporary land?

>> This will not affect that whatsoever.

Okay. Um it has and

that is that started during the point we

were already in a month-to-month

operation. And you got to remember, the

lease that the Broad Street Market

Association has, more importantly than a

lease, is it's a lease and management

agreement. Right? And so, they have the

agreement to manage the facility. Yeah,

we're just laying there tenant. I get

it. Yeah, but but more than that because

of the landlord, you know, is They do

some stuff. Yeah, you have to keep it up

and all that. So, but they have to run

the business side of it and um

the

So, that doesn't change. The diff- The

only thing that will happen if this did

not get adopted is that they would not

have access to the federal or the state

funds they got to do the improvements to

the other building that they now have,

which is somewhere between three and

$500,000.

I forget the exact number.

Okay. Um

thank you for that clarification. So,

the only thing that I would ask if we

can get to

actual numbers for

what we're what the taxpayers are going

to be spending for We'll get you what

the January payments are going to be for

all three leases. Yep. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you. Vice President Green, any

questions?

Thank you very much. I don't have any

further questions.

Thank you. Councilwoman Davis, any

questions?

>> Thank you. No, no questions for me at

this time. Okay, thank you. Councilwoman

Daniels, any questions?

Um no questions right now. Thank you.

Thank you.

So, with the information that will be

shared regarding the actual numbers,

um I would like to add Resolution 89 of

2025 to our next

legislative session agenda for a formal

vote.

This concludes

the business of the Administration

Committee. We will move forward with our

meeting agenda. Next, we have the Budget

and Finance Committee. I will defer to

our Budget and Finance Committee Chair,

Vice President Green, to lead

discussion.

Thank you, President Hill.

Uh the Budget and Finance Committee will

begin with Bill 14 of 2025. Mr.

Truesdale, could you read that into the

record, please?

Bill 14, 2025. An ordinance amending

Chapter 5-503,

tax abatement and exemptions of Title 5,

licensing and taxation code, to further

extend the statutory termination date by

1 year to December 31st, 2026.

Thank you very much. And who from the

administration is going to present on

this?

Good evening. If you wouldn't mind

giving us an overview, uh and then we'll

open it up for questions.

Thank you.

This is a bill requesting uh that

Council consider extending the uh LERTA

program for another year. As you know,

we came before you in the early part of

uh this year and requested an extension

for LERTA

um because we need to revise

the legislation.

It involves participation from the

county

and the school district.

Um we do have for not not for public

review yet because we formed a committee

that represented not only the three

entities that I just spoke about, but

also investors, developers, and so forth

to participate in helping us look at the

current policy to revise it.

We have a draft. And we've had a draft

ready. But our problem has been is the

school district

um going through

um

their uh

getting out of

um

receivership.

Um the person on their board that was

assigned to participate in our committee

became ill and wasn't able to

participate.

We contacted the school district and

asked them for another person to be

assigned uh to that task. Um we did not

get a response until what? 2 weeks ago?

If that.

>> If that, yeah. Um and

um

they have the legislation, the draft

legislation that we asked for them to

provide input from their system. Now,

the county has already responded to us

and they're fine with what we've done.

We're still waiting for the school

district. They need more time.

Uh they have a new solicitor solicitor.

They have um

council member Well, they I'm sorry, not

council members, but um school board

members. They were just um

reinstalled I think this week.

And so forth and they need time to go

through

our amendment

with in within our system.

Uh I think uh solicitor and

uh Rover spoke with the solicitor at the

district recently. I we we just emailed

them about the the extension update to

the solicitor, the county, and the

school district. Um and uh

they they were the ones who uh we

communicated with last year for this. Um

and

they still have to speak with their

client. Um but they are they're

obviously in transition. I mean, a year

ago when we did the extension, it was a

receiver who you know had immediately

back to us. Uh this time it's got to go

through a process with um

the solicitor, the superintendent, and

the board.

Yeah, I want to add also. I actually

spoke with uh

uh Dr. Henry and also Dr. Stokes. And

again, they're saying they need more

time cuz it just like Mr. Grover said,

they are going to have to go through

their entire body has to review

everything.

So, they just need more clarification on

their end to actually extend it, but

they're going through transition. So,

they were asking to please just give

more time.

I want to add that this uh legislation

requires us to have a public meeting.

So, we are moving ahead to have our

public meeting so that we can get input

from uh the community. And so forth,

that was something that we move forward

to do. So, we'd like to move forward

with doing that. So, that doesn't hold

us up once the district gets back to us

with their comments, concern, or their

approval.

Thank you very much. Um I don't really

have many questions at the moment. Uh I

did sit in on some of the the LERTA

meetings throughout the year. Uh and so

I kind of got some information from that

as the process was occurring. Um I know

we kind of had this conversation around

the same time last year as far as

extending LERTA. Uh I know there was

some some questions and things with

that. So, um glad to hear that there is

a draft. Um and that a conversation was

held with the county and is being held

with the school district and just kind

of waiting for their update. I'm going

to start to my far

right with Councilwoman Daniels. Do you

have any questions or comments regarding

Bill 14 of 2025?

No, I don't have any questions. Thank

you. Thank you. Councilwoman Davis, any

questions or comments?

Thank you, Vice President Green. Um

Director Martin Roberts, when do you

expect to have the public hearing?

Um

Jason, do you have that off the top of

your head? Yeah, I believe it was the

17th. We just wanted to make sure what

was going to happen tonight was going to

be the 17th. And is it just going to be

for one one day? Yes, this is This is

for as of now. That session, yes. Okay.

That's all my questions. Thank you.

Thank you. And just to clarify, that's

December 17th? Yes. I'll I'll get you

the exact thing cuz I'm going off the

top of my head. I believe it is the

17th. So, it's a week from now.

All right.

Actually, I think we're going to already

hold it here in the chambers. Yes.

Interesting. Okay. Um I'm going to

pass it to President Hill now. Any

questions?

Thank you. Um thanks for asking that

clarifying question because I was like,

"The 17th of what? December? January?"

December. I'm sorry. That's okay. Thank

you. I was just curious. Um

So, I know we're waiting for the school

district. Did the county provide any

feedback on the draft? And what was

their input like? Uh their input is

pretty much I mean, they're in they're

in um aligned with what we want to do.

As far as like moving forward, it's just

again, we're waiting on the school

district because they are the biggest

piece. So, again, it's up to them as far

as like what they would actually want or

what they would actually want to try to

compensate as far as like making it

equal for everybody. Okay. And then my

second question is around um

goals. Should this be extended um and

learning from what happened over the

last 10 years, were goals articulated um

to the county as well? Did they

discuss any goals? Uh to an extent. And

as I said, their with the county's take

on it is

we're the administrators of the program.

So, their input is basically doing the

assessments to make sure everybody's

compliant or actually eligible to

receive it. Um so, and then along with

the school district as well, they're

going off of our lead. So, they're

basically trying to work together as

tandem.

Okay.

Um

Okay, I don't have any other questions.

Thank you. Um uh Madam Chair, I I might

add that the school district I mean,

that the uh Dauphin County participated

in almost every meeting. So,

they were intrical to helping make the

additions and the amendments Oh, good.

>> to the legis Yeah, so so when they got

the full packet, they were, you know,

prepared to act on it.

>> That's that's good. I'm I'm glad to hear

that. I would just like to ensure, as

always, like there's a a

a mechanism for evaluation as we move

forward. Thank you.

Thank you. Councilwoman Rawls, any

questions or comments? Thank you, Vice

President Green. Good evening to you

both. Thank you for being here. I don't

have any questions.

Thank you. Councilman Rodriguez, any

questions or comments? Thank you, Madam

Vice President. And thank you both for

joining us this evening. As always, uh

when we talk about tax abatement, I

understand it's like a double-edged

sword for the benefit it brings to our

businesses attracting, but it also kind

of puts a pause on revenue that we can

bring into the city. So, it has a

double-edged sword. I just wish we would

have known a bit earlier about the 12/17

meeting cuz I would love to be present.

As we always state, get us that

information. With Christmas coming up,

the holidays, it's kind of hard for us

to be everywhere, but I would have

definitely put that on my calendar

because the residents' input would

probably be the most important regarding

this, in my opinion. Um the business

owners' input, how it's affecting them,

the positive reactions from these

business owners that utilize the LERTA.

Just wanting to find out more. Um I

would hate to make an uneducated

decision or just kind of guesstimate

these things. I would love to hear the

feedback from these residents, business

owners, etc. But I do appreciate your

hard work towards this. Um nothing

further. Thank you.

Uh Rawls, I'm sorry, Ms. Rodriguez. I

keep going. So, I would like to know um

this Councilman Rodriguez.

Um this probably won't probably be the

only session. Again, we're still going

to have to have um the feedback from the

school district. So, there's probably

going to continue us to actually talk

more with the public to see what their

comments are.

>> And that that even to that point that

even adds extra layers because I would

love to know what, you know, uh

Commissioner Douglass or Commissioner

Hartwick, how they feel about it.

Commissioner Priest, um you know, Dr.

Henry Benjamin Benjamin Henry, um Mayor

Suttles Craig, you know, to see how it's

working for the district, their do's,

their don'ts, their wants, their needs.

You know, I I would like to bring

everyone to the table and hear, you

know, I would just

just speaking for myself, I I wouldn't

want to make a decision on this in any

legislative session with partial

information or guessing or wishing.

These are the things that always tend to

kind of backfire on us. But I do

understand how it can benefit and also

hurt in the same time. Just like you

said, it is a double-edged sword.

>> Absolutely. So, cuz you have to look at

it as how moving forward the

basically looking at how we would go as

far as a how the abatements would go

going moving forward. But you also have

to look at, okay,

either we're going to help develop

properties or we're going to have

properties sit. Yeah. So, either way

you're looking at health health issues

and also danger issues. Um talking to

the school district over the years,

especially with abandoned properties

near schools, they're asking about

safety issues about who owns properties

and so forth. Yes. Um so, and again,

also this could be an opening up um I

mean, I've had this conversation a few

times of going that are actually causing

the vacant and blighted issues. So,

that's another

question cuz again, this LERTA is just

one piece of an actual I mean, figure.

So, what are you going to do to move

forward as far as what we can do to take

away or help alleviate the problem with

the blighted and the blighted and vacant

properties cuz property owners have a

lot of leeway. Yes. Cuz the only thing

we're actually able to do with this

state and a lot of other states is just

register your property. As long as

you're paying your taxes, if you get

fines, you pay them, but there's no real

super consequences as far as like what

would happen if the property stayed

vacant. And and I appreciate that. It's

just just tonight, let's just just take

tonight, you know, not even I've dive in

too deep or pulling back too many

layers. We went from the raises to the

payments on the Broad Street Market, now

the reduction of, you know, the with the

abatement through the LERTA.

It it it it kind of raises a lot of, you

know, red hairs or red, you know, senses

when we're like, "Okay, how are we

generating income?" Let's start having

the conversations on how we're bringing

revenue in cuz a lot of these

discussions are kind of going out, but

is that really sustainable? What's the

long-term plan for these things?

>> I'll say this. I know we're not going to

really talk about what we've done as far

as like the bill unless it's at an

executive

>> not a debate debate at all.

>> but you do have a a member from council

that is on the committee and she could

share with you the information that you

do have. So, and you can see what we're

actually working on. So, it actually

benefits us.

>> a point of order. I wouldn't want to put

the president on the spot like that. No,

I understand. But it's it on something

that would benefit um

all three entities. So, we can actually

actually see revenue. And I respect

that. I'm just trying to do the best I

can with the information that we're

given.

Try to disseminate it as quickly as we

can to make the best sound decision for

the residents. You know, sometimes we're

in between a rock and a hard place and

we're just trying to I just really wish

we would have got that data ahead of

time. Cuz that's something I absolutely

would have been to and attended. So, And

just to clarify, this is to extend what

we have, not to do anything new.

>> Yep. So, it's kind of like we we're not

making a decision on the draft that we

haven't seen yet. It's extending what we

have to to give us more time. That's

kind of what we did last year, extend

what we have to give us more time to

have the discussion. But, in my opinion,

that even raised more red hairs, cuz is

what we have working? How's it been

working? What's the metrics and numbers

for that? You know, what it's just it

even raised more raises more questions.

Yeah, so like as long as time goes on as

over the past like 4 years I've

submitted that information and again

talked about my own quirks as far as

like what could be done different, what

could we do. Again, again I wasn't here

when the original one was made or the

one prior to that.

>> Plus, I don't want to pretend like I

have amnesia. I just remember from past

conversations right here in this chamber

when

when many directors said LERTA wasn't

working. We had some directors saying it

was working. So, I'm just trying to do

my best to make the sound decision.

Please don't fault me for that.

>> no. And then like I said, um just like I

said a few minutes ago, again LERTA is

just one piece. So, again, what are you

going to do with the other properties

that are sitting vacant? So, prime

example, um

the 800 and some odd properties that are

vacant in Allison Hill. That came from a

committee group that I'm on with

Blueprint Communities. We did the We did

the um the census reports in order for

us to actually get that number. Um and

again, you have a lot of property owners

that own those properties just sitting

on them and they're basically looking

for whenever the boom is going to

happen. So, that's a big piece of why

you don't have a lot of

>> But, that's why the economic development

plan is essential and hopefully we can

start those meetings soon.

>> Yeah, but that's also going to be

something that's going to have to be

looked at some way that we as a city can

actually put something in the play to

help That's going to That's a That's a a

conjunction thing as far as like working

together.

>> Absolutely.

>> So, again again, your part's going to be

in that as far as the city council what

we can do moving forward to actually put

something like in the play. So, we're

holding more accountability towards the

towards the property owners versus just

letting property sit.

>> Absolutely.

>> Cuz we have properties and again, we're

all from this area. We have properties

sitting for over 30 years. Yep. They

have this been sitting sitting vacant

and that's a that's an issue.

>> But, pie in the sky pie in the sky,

getting those properties on the tax roll

and generate some revenue from those

would be amazing. And it's not to

discredit anything you and Ms. Gloria

Roberts are doing. I'm just giving my,

you know, sentiments on, you know, how

we can collaborate or even cooperate a

bit better in in the hindsight. But,

thank you both for joining us this

evening and thank you. Nothing further,

Madam Vice President. Thank you very

much, Councilman Jones. Any questions or

comments?

Yeah, um

Ooh, uh

I'm not a big fan of LERTA. Um just

historically, um

you know, having to wait for a revenue

to come in. Again, we're looking at

again bringing our city um to a place

where we have a steady flow um coming

in.

Um

Can you make this clear to me? Are you I

mean, with this extend First, let me ask

this question. Are you looking at some

Now, you I heard the a little bit

discussion of what you were saying. Is

there something different um adding to

LERTA or you're looking to move away

from LERTA?

I'm sorry. No, we're not looking away

from use from a tax incentive, but we're

looking at to modify it so it's actually

going to be beneficial for tax revenue.

>> I got you, because that's that was my

that was my thing. Um I'm

I just don't like the way that is

currently in in effect. Um again,

waiting for an extensive period of time

for the city to actually see something.

Though something does come in, but not

at the rate that it would. Hopefully,

again looking back at the economic

development plan, this is very

This is intricate to our city again,

man, because when we look at um

revitalization,

you have um it's very

attractive for business I mean,

developers to come in with LERTA, but

the businesses

is is a is a is a bunch of red tape for

them to cut through to to to every, you

know, the I can see why it's tough for

people to come in here to do business

with us. So, um looking at that,

um hopefully um a pivotal moment in time

right now is the polyclinic um because

that's one, you know, we can see instant

uh revenue. I think is they they said it

would at least 700 at 3/4 of a million

dollars just in taxes.

I mean, um hopefully that project being

successful will bring other developers

into our city

um and not having to use these

abatements at all all the time and, you

know, um looking to generate revenue on

their end and make sure that everybody

wins, right? So, um I would love to see

what what the um

the new direction of LERTA is, because

I'm not again, I'm just not a big fan of

it. Um and hopefully um you can share

some of that information. I I really

wasn't aware that there were discussions

around it. I thought we were looking to

move away from it. So, with this

extension, may I ask,

for a year, correct?

Um

are we going to be taking in more people

coming in developing using this um and

then

you know what I'm saying? Because if

you're going to change it, you don't

want to tie them into what we have right

now and then come back again for another

extension. So, most likely, the what I

discussed last year, um you do have

projects that are stalled. And then

again, you have to go through CRW, you

have to go through a lot of things as

far as like changing development plans.

So, it's honestly, you would you're

looking at the projects that are

currently in motion. That's just I'm not

speaking on behalf of them, I'm just

saying that's um usually what happens.

So, um That's why I'm asking. I I get

that there are projects

>> really been a lot of And to be honest

with you, there honestly has not been a

lot of full movement on So, Yeah,

because of because of

>> question would be, is this enough time?

Uh I would say so.

Yes. I mean, if

it's kind of confusing to me, because if

we we we don't have movement and then

all of a sudden we we get this extension

and then we're looking to revise. What's

the anticipation on the revision of of

of of LERTA?

Timeline-wise. A year? 2 years? Mm-mm.

>> They they have to tie to tax years.

Yeah. So, our our tax year is January 1,

right? For real estate taxes. So, that's

what it's got to tie to.

Okay. So, again, I will ask, do you

think that this is enough time with

current projects? And then what about

those people looking to come do projects

now to use LERTA, to utilize LERTA? What

would that look like? Uh the same as I

tell any developer that talks to me

about using LERTA, you still have to

submit your plans, you still have to be

approved. So, if they don't meet the

deadline, they don't meet the deadline.

So, we can't we can't determine on what

they're going to do if they don't have

everything sufficient to move forward.

That's not our decision. The LERTA

applications are tied to the when you

apply for your building permit.

>> Yes. Right? Not when you put your land

development plan in and not when you get

a zoning. When you put a building permit

in.

>> to be approved before you can go

forward.

>> not allowed to give it to someone who

didn't apply.

Right? So, it what it it does is Okay,

that's clarifying. That's that's okay.

Right. And so, your options if you

didn't extend it, there just wouldn't be

a LERTA starting in 2026 and there

couldn't be one in reality before 2027.

Right.

>> And the question is, would developers

just stop because one's coming?

Right? Right? That's a

>> I get it. You want to use other people's

money to build. I get it, right? The

important thing about abatement is it

doesn't cut a penny of the taxes we

actually collect, because it only

applies to increased value in real

estate when it's assessed by the county

after the project is done. You could put

a million dollars into a property and

the assessment comes back at 100,000,

it's still 100,000 property.

>> Even with this reassessment of these

empty buildings. Yes. So, whenever So,

so it is the increased assessed value

that is abated, not the current tax on

it. Mhm. So, it So, and so they

encourage you to put money in to create

increased value in a property. Um the

the the structure I as as Jason Press

explored is where it's explored. Some

people do it on a step stage. We had a

you know, a cliff, right? And there's

different points of view of which it is.

So, what is the reason that you say that

there's no movement right now? What is

what is the issue? Towards the end of

the year. You know, a lot of times

people I'm just being honest with you,

construction really doesn't go on till

the summertime spring.

>> Okay.

So, it's it's towards the end of the

year. You have certain projects that are

going on now that were prior were

approved previously, looking at probably

maybe doing some

I guess foundation

>> there's no doing on us, though.

Much developers, okay. Cuz I said, just

like And just like Mr. Grover is saying,

it's just like you have If you have a

property that's $500,000, you have

another 500 in there, you're still

getting taxed on the original 500.

Absolutely. So, it's not you're not

Yeah.

Yeah, so hopefully I can just um I think

someone asked for that or you will be

forwarding the information on what it

what it would look like moving forward

um if this extension is is approved. So,

you will be sending that over to us,

right?

All right.

Yeah, that's a yeah. Got you on record

now. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. I have no further questions.

Thank you very much, Councilman Davis.

Did you have a follow-up question?

No, just uh I was going to uh read this

because it can be confusing uh before

our residents in layman's term

terms, tax abatement is a reduction or

exemption from taxes granted by

government for a specific period of

time. This is typically used as an

incentive to encourage economic

development, such as new investments or

improvements in property within a

particular area. It can help stimulate

business growth,

improve infrastructure, or enhance real

estate value by reducing the tax burden

on individuals and businesses. So, in

layman's terms, just for the residents

or

whoever.

Thank you very much. If there are no

other comments or questions, um I'm

going to ask this be moved to our next

legislative agenda. Thank you very much

for being here tonight and for your

presentation.

Thank you.

We will continue to move on with

resolution 87 of 2025. Mr. Truesdale,

would you read that into the record,

please?

Resolution 87, 2025. Resolution

authorizing the City of Harrisburg to

negotiate and enter into a collection

agreement with the Harrisburg School

District for the collection of the

business privilege and mercantile tax

and the amusement tax for the 2026 tax

year.

Thank you very much.

If you wouldn't mind introducing

yourself and then giving us an overview,

uh

and then we'll have any questions if if

any of my council members have any. All

right. Good evening, uh City Council.

Mike Hughes, uh tax administrator.

Uh as we briefly touched on last

evening, uh we also collect the business

privilege, mercantile,

and amusement taxes for the school

district.

Uh we first started uh our first

agreement with the school district

started in 2001, and we've had

continuing agreements

of different terms ever since.

Uh the current collection rate is at 4%

of the gross amount that we collect.

Um

the rest is pretty straightforward, so

if you have any questions, I can answer

those.

Thank you very much. Um this is kind of

something we do every year. I don't have

any questions regarding it. Uh just

on an aside, thank you for getting back

to us with uh the response from our

question last night and getting us uh

the penalty amount collected uh even

though you guys were here very late, uh

you got it to us very promptly, and I

appreciate that.

Uh I don't have any questions. I'm going

to start to my far left here with

Councilman Jones.

Uh how you doing today, this evening?

All right, thank you. Long night last

night.

>> Yes. No questions.

Thank you very much. Councilman

Rodriguez, any questions? Thank you,

Madam Vice President. Uh always good to

see you, Mr. Hughes. Um no questions for

me. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Councilwoman Rawls,

any questions? Good morning, good

morning, C.

I wasn't even here. I was on Zoom, and

I'm still tired from last night.

Good evening. Thank you.

Thank you. I have no questions.

Thank you very much. President Hill.

Thank you. Good evening. I don't have

any questions. Thank you very much.

Councilwoman Davis?

Thank you. No questions for me, either.

Thank you very much. And Councilwoman

Daniels, any questions or comments?

Seeing none,

thank you very much for being here

tonight. I'm going to ask this is moved

to our next legislative agenda. Have a

great night. You kept it shorter

tonight. Appreciate it.

And I'm going to pass it back to

President Hill.

Thank you, Vice President Green. The

next committee business lies with the

Public Safety Committee. I will defer to

our Public Safety Committee Chair,

Councilman Jones, to lead discussion.

Thank you, President Hill.

Mr. Truesdale, can you please read

resolution 92 of 2025 into the record?

Resolution 92, 2025. Resolution

approving, adopting, and placing into

immediate effect the Dauphin County 2025

Emergency Operations Plan as the

official emergency operations plan of

the City of Harrisburg. Thank you. We

have someone here representing

Come on up. State your name,

birth date, blood type.

Uh Senior Deputy Chief Michael Sauder.

I'm fairly old. I don't know my blood

type, it's red.

No. Uh can you just give us a brief

overview of um

resolution 92?

Yeah, so uh Dauphin County prepares

several plans for us and other

municipalities over the years. Um we

just did the hazard mitigation plan a

couple of weeks ago. Um that plan looks

at how we can improve things and and try

to alleviate some uh issues coming

moving forward. The operations plan is

how we respond to uh these incidents.

The operations plan

uh talks about how we respond to certain

incidents. So, it is truly a um

it's a link for the emergency management

between local, state, county, and state

governments um developing uh contacts,

how we get our resources as large-scale

incidents contend to grow, uh how we

would reach out as a local responder and

say, "We're out of resources. We need

the next level." We can communicate with

county

agencies, then they can help us provide

with state agencies, and then we can all

come together, and it's done for uh the

same language using the same

terminology, and then everybody's on the

same page for the most part. And

everybody through Dauphin County

uh adopts this plan.

Uh it also uh

uh once it's signed, it allows us

funding ability for funding for disaster

relief and stuff like that through the

state for flooding and and other types

of emergencies.

All right.

So, we have a plan.

It's good to hear. It's good to hear. We

have a plan.

Um this is very understandable to me.

Um I really don't have any questions.

I'll open up the floor to my colleagues

that may have questions, and I'll start

in the center with President Hill.

Thank you. I don't have any questions.

Vice President Green.

Thank you for being here tonight. I

don't have any questions.

Councilwoman Davis.

Thank you, Councilman Jones. Uh good

evening.

I don't have any questions, either. I

understand this resolution. Thank you.

Councilwoman Daniels, if you're still

with us.

Yeah, no questions. Thank you.

All right, and I'll go to

Mr. Rodriguez, Councilman Rodriguez.

Thank you, Chair Jones. Uh

Deputy Chief, it's always a pleasure

seeing you. Um

great history together. I completely

understand the importance of uh adopting

this, so thank you for your work, and um

tell Chief Finney and I said hey. I

will. Thank you.

And last but not least, Councilwoman

Jocelyn Rawls. Thank you for that um

nice

introduction.

Um good evening. Um I don't have any

questions. The only question I had

earlier was just the different languages

and the translation of it, and I know

that's something we're working on um uh

even county-wide, so I just wanted to

let the public know the answer to that

that question, cuz we had it met again

about the plan. So, I don't have any

questions. It's a much-needed plan, and

I know in the future we can try to get

it translated into different languages.

Yeah, it's a process. And that's that's

the county would That would be who's

working on that. Yes, sir. And that's

what the answer was the question was in

the the email. The county is working on

that as best as they can, and I

understand that. So, that's it for me.

Okay.

All right, thank you. If no one else has

any uh more questions or comments,

I'd like to thank you for um explaining

into the public what this is, and I

would ask that uh resolution 92 of 2025

be moved to our next legislative

session, and I would ask my colleagues

to support.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our final committee business this

evening lies with the Public Works

Committee. So, I will defer to our

Public Works Committee Chair, Councilman

Rodriguez, to lead discussion. Thank

you, Madam President. Uh today the

Public Works Committee will be meeting

to discuss three resolutions. Um Mr.

Truesdale, can you please read

resolution 88 of 2025 into the record?

Resolution 88, 2025. Resolution

authorizing the City of Harrisburg to

negotiate and enter into an

intergovernmental cooperation agreement

with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

Department of General Services for the

purpose of authorizing the city to

provide municipal solid waste, refuse,

industrial, lunchroom, office waste, and

recycling collection and disposal

services for designated DGS facilities

within the city.

Thank you for that, and I see uh who who

from Public Works

uh Kevin Jackson, Mr. John, who would be

coming up? Director West. Good to see

you all, gentlemen.

Good evening. Great to see you guys. Um

Mr. John or Mr. Jackson, whoever would

like to give an overhaul of resolution

88 of 2025.

Good afternoon.

Good eve What good af Good evening.

Mr. Jackson, can you talk directly into

the mic?

>> that. Now it's on. Oh, oh, y'all let it

go?

All right, um as of right now, we

oversee uh DGS um

trash collection

um throughout the year, and Mr. Grove is

aware of this, also. They've been

reaching out to us to oversee the

recycling program.

Um we've been through um several emails

throughout the year.

Um just got a prior email just

probably like 2 weeks ago.

Um they're looking to start this in

February.

Um so,

um it will bring more revenue to the

city as well as we oversee their

recycling program.

And we're just trying to, you know, um

bring it to council to see if that they

would move forward with this

uh

program that they're reaching out to us

to take over as the city.

All right. Awesome. Mr. John, anything

to add?

All right. Um I have no questions. I'll

open it up to my colleagues on council.

I'll start to my far right with

Councilwoman Daniels.

>> All right, I will

>> Sorry, no questions. Thank you. All

right, thank you, Madam Vice President.

I don't have any questions regarding

this. Thank you. Absolutely, Madam

President. I don't have any questions. I

just wanted to review the the term. So,

it's effective January 1st, 2026 for a

term of 5 years with the option of two

additional 5-year extensions. So, I

always

think that's a great opportunity. That's

the wrong one, but you're right.

>> That's the wrong one. Okay. That's the

recycling. Wait. Oh, sorry. So, that'll

be the that will be the the last one.

Resolution 91. Oh, okay.

Cuz it says it in this one, too, though.

Is that

Okay, well, glad I mentioned it, then.

Okay. So, thank you for the correction,

Mr. Jackson. I don't have any other

questions. I think it makes sense if

you've been um already engaged with DGS,

why not continue in a in a greater

capacity? So, thank you.

Thank you, Councilwoman Rawls.

Uh good evening to you both. Thank you

for being here. Anything that's going to

bring the city more revenue in this

state of um

uncertainty is um good for me. So, I

don't have any questions. All right, and

uh

looking for my other colleagues, I will

uh I'll come back to see if they have

any questions, but in the meanwhile,

I'll move forward with resolution 90 of

2025. Mr. Rodriguez, just wanted to

know, Councilman, the one unique thing

about DGS's long-term agreement is they

have what's called the most favored

nation kind of clause. So, we are

obligated, if we give anyone a better

rate, to give them that rate, as well,

the Commonwealth. So, uh on this,

they're very good negotiators. So, they

make sure they get the

the lower rate that we charge anyone. We

we're guaranteed to give it to the

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Well,

that's great to know. Thank you,

Solicitor Grover, for that information.

Absolutely. Uh Mr. Truesdale, can you

please read resolution 90 of 2025 into

the record, please?

Resolution 90, 2025. Reso- Resolution

authorizing the City of Harrisburg to

negotiate and enter into a memorandum of

understanding with the Harrisburg School

District to provide salt to the school

district at a price of $125

per ton during the 2025-2026

winter season.

Thank you for that. Uh gentlemen, would

you like to give a quick overall of

resolution 90 of 2025? Yes, good

evening. Good evening. So, uh the school

district uh calls and requests uh salt

by the ton, typically uh 20 tons at a

time, and we provide that salt to them

so that they can uh make the paths safe

for the children.

Uh doing parking lots, sidewalks, uh

different paths that the school district

use. So, this is something that they

have been doing for a few years now, so

and we we provide about 20 tons to them

roughly per storm.

Per storm, that's interesting.

All right. Um I have no questions

regarding this, but I'll open up to my

colleagues, starting with my immediate

right, Councilwoman Rawls.

Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Um I

just love that um the city and the

school district are working together on

this. It's almost like we're paying each

other in a sense. So, I think I I love

this resolution and hearing it set out

now. Um so, and with the camera crews

here,

so um I don't have any questions. Thank

you, Madam President.

I don't have any questions. It's a

no-brainer. Anything for the safety and

protection of our children. So, thank

you.

Absolutely, and we're looking to have a

bad winter, too, so yeah.

Madam Vice President.

I don't have any questions for you.

Thank you.

All right.

Councilwoman. No questions. Thank you.

All right, Councilwoman Daniels.

Uh no questions. Thank you. All right.

Uh so, moving forward on our agenda, Mr.

Truesdale, can you please read

resolution 91 of 2025 into the record?

Resolution 91, 2025. Resolution

authorizing the renewal of a services

agreement with Penn Waste Incorporated

to to continue to serve as the city's

single

stream recycling disposal service.

All right, thank you. And gentlemen, if

you'd like to give a overall of

resolution 91 of 2025.

So, they reached out to

me and Dave myself um probably like a

week or two ago to discuss

um extending the contract. Um

as you can see, Waste Management has

took over from Penn Waste.

So, when they offered us a contract for

2 years, Mr. West jumped in and said,

"Could we do four?"

Or what would they offer us four?

So, that we try to get locked in so that

so, you know, throughout the years, each

year the rates go up. So, we try to lock

into a rate that allow us to be locked

in for the next 4 years. So, that way we

won't get hammered in the next few

years.

All right, thank you. Um and I have no

questions. I appreciate that and always

looking, you know, forward and trying to

get the best benefits for the city. I

really appreciate that, guys. And I will

start once again to my far right,

Councilwoman Daniels, any questions?

No questions. Thank you.

All right. Um

Councilwoman Rawls.

Um no, I don't have any questions. Just

thank you, Director West, for being

proactive and jumping in front of that.

I mean, thank you all, too. I know

you're sitting right here. I see

Director West, but um that's just great,

being proactive. I think that's what we

need for the city. So, thank you.

Um Madam President.

Thank you. I just wanted to review these

terms to make sure this one is right. Um

the agreement shall be for an initial

period of 4 years, beginning January

1st, 2026

through December 31st of 2030,

and automatically renewal

and automatically renews thereafter for

successive terms of 1 year each, unless

either party gives written notice of the

termination to the other party by

certified mail at least 30 days prior to

the expiration of the then existing term

in accordance with paragraph six. That

one sounds right?

>> Yes. Okay. Thank you. I don't have any

other questions. Thank you, Madam

President. Madam Vice President.

Thank you very much, Councilman

Rodriguez. I don't have any questions

for you. I just want to say thank you.

Um thank you for doing all the

behind-the-scenes work that nobody sees.

Um you know, the early hours, the three

At one time, I got up at 3:00 a.m. I had

to go somewhere. And I got I went

outside, and this car was pulling up on

me. I got scared. Realized it was a

trash truck. I'm like, "Wait, they're up

this early on a regular basis?" Um but a

lot of your work doesn't get seen

because your kind of part of your job is

to like stay out of the way. Get it done

without people realizing it's being

done. But you provide a very important

service to the city, and so I thank you

for that. Uh you're also a very

important revenue stream for the city.

Uh one of the few that we have left. And

a lot of people don't realize that, and

I appreciate you guys for always

continuing to expand uh and find new

ways to be able to bring more revenue to

the city. Um and then also service our

neighbors and surrounding areas um to

show them the great work that we have in

the city. So, thank you for all you do.

Thank you. Thank you for that,

Councilwoman Davis. My sentiments, uh

same thing. I always tell you guys,

thank you. Um I know the residents

appreciate you. You go above and beyond

the call of duty all the time at any

time. So, I want to say thank you again

and again and again and again.

Thank you. Thank you for that, and

Councilman Jones. I'll just say what

they said.

No, I I'm very familiar with these

things, and you guys do do a wonderful

job. So, again, thank you for your