Harrisburg City Council Work Session 6-3-2025

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It's 5:30 p.m. I would like to call our

work session to order.

Mr. Parker, could you please call the

role?

Miss Daniels.

Miss Davis, present.

Miss Green, present.

Mr. Jones, here.

Ms. RS present. Mr. Rodriguez.

He's here. His stuff is, but I don't

know where he is. Okay. Okay. I don't

know. And Miss Hill

present. Thank you.

Not sure where Councilman Rodriguez

went, but um we will begin this evening

uh with committee business from the

administration

committee. This evening we have uh four

resolutions for discussion. So we will

begin with resolution 29 of 2025. Mr.

Parker, could you please read it into

the record? Yes.

A resolution authorizing the submission

of a grant application to the United

States Department of Transportation,

safe streets and roads for all grant

program for up to $5 million for funds

to improve safety and accessibility

along Division Street.

Thank

you. I see Mr. Ciders is here on behalf

of the administration and Miss Vulmer.

Good evening. If you guys wouldn't mind

um providing an overview of resolution

29 of 2025, please.

Sure.

So, this is a grant opportunity um as

provided by the US Department of

Transportation, Safe Streets for All.

Um we are currently in the middle of

doing some preliminary design on

Division Street, but we have yet to

determine the the funding for

construction. And we thought that this

would this grant would be a good

opportunity to to fund the construction

of Division Street.

Okay. Thank you. Miss Bulmer, would you

like to add anything before I open the

floor up to my colleagues who may have

questions? Sure. Sorry. I'm sorry to

read.

Um, so we've been trying to complete the

Excuse me one second. Can you please

move the microphone closer to you? Thank

you. We've been trying to uh complete

the vision zero safe streets for all

program and this is part of that. Um so

the uh objectives are to enhance safety

and

accessibility especially like uh traffic

calming measures, pedestrian cross

sites, uh ADA compliant sidewalks,

that's a big one. And then the

multimodal aspect is always a a big

thing with bicycles and just people

walking, you know, just to have safe

places to walk, safe havens to stop when

they're in the middle of I know this

when I walk to work every morning. Like

it's really really nice to have a little

safe section on Front Street or Forester

when I'm crossing. Um, and we're hoping

that the effect of all of this will help

to reinvigorate businesses along

Division Street. Um,

and this is all has been part of this uh

the vision zero process for a long time.

Uh, the safe streets for all program is

great and we're trying to jump on it. It

does require a

20% match which we think we have with uh

the liquid fuels and a little kick in

from the general fund. Um and we're

trying to kind of get these funds nailed

down in our pockets

before other things happen at the

federal level. And this is federal

money. This is US DOT. So the match

cannot be federal funding. It has to be

uh here like personal.

Um we think we could do it with liquid

fuels and some general fund money. Uh

but it you know it's one of those things

that's just not that's not complicated.

I'm sorry not uncomplicated. It's

actually quite complicated. But uh we

have uh the services of Wallace

Montgomery

uh having created the narrative and cost

estimate and we feel pretty confident

that they know what they're doing and

they know how to manage this project. So

that's what we have.

Thank

you.

Um, just wanted to note I see under the

strategic planning and implementation

that the estimated cost for the division

of street improvements is approximately

$6.5

million. Is that correct? And the city

is currently in the planning um and

public engagement phase. So, we can look

forward to um public engagement meetings

or town halls in the future.

Yes, that's correct. We had a public

meeting on May 8th at Italian Lake. Um

we had a pretty sizable turnout. We also

have our

survey for the division street

improvements running until June 9th. We

we also have the display boards on the

atrium if anyone wants to stop out and

take a look and and give us their

opinion. Once the survey is complete,

we'll compile the data and work with the

administration to come forward with the

kind of the proposed alternative that we

want to proceed with. And at that point,

we will hold another public meeting to

kind of showcase what uh the results of

the the public survey were.

And just one more question, how can

people access the public survey if they

haven't had an opportunity to complete

it yet? There is a link on the city's

website as well as a QR code that we can

scan into the atrium of this building,

the MLK building. Thank you. I don't

have any other questions. I'll open the

floor to my colleagues who may have some

additional questions. Um, I'd like to

begin with our public works committee

chair, Councilman Rodriguez. Thank you,

Madam President. Um, I've actually had a

opportunity to speak with uh our

engineer, Mr. Joel, so I I have no

questions on this. Thank you. You're

welcome. Councilman Jones, any

questions? Thank you, President Hill. No

questions at this time. Thank you,

Councilwoman Ross. Any questions? Thank

you, President Hill. Good evening to you

both. Thank you for being here tonight

to explain and give more clarification

on this project. I just had one

question. um uh while this project is

getting done, is there any uh I don't

want to say thought process, but is

there any um anything in the works of

maybe putting cameras up for speeding? I

know we're doing this um as a way for

safety, but I also know uh a lot of cars

do drive very fast down that road. I

don't know how much this will stop them,

but I know currently um that is one of

the high places that end where it

crosses that second um that where cars

do go through that light. So, are we

putting anything up there to enforce um

speeding even at while the road is

getting um safely precautioned? Yes, we

are looking into interim measures to uh

calm traffic until construction can

begin. This is going to be maybe

temporary bumpouts at the corner

corners. Uh just anything we can do to

get people slowed down until we can

implement our permanent solution. Okay.

Thank you. That was all I had. Thank

you, Vice President Green. Any

questions? Thank you very much. Thank

you both for being here tonight. I don't

have any questions. Thank you,

Councilwoman Davis. Any questions? Thank

you very much. Good evening. Thank you

for being here. No questions. Just uh a

couple of comments in reference to the

uh school zone that's right there at six

and division. We have um it's Cam

Curtain. Um, I just think it's important

that this project move forward because

we need to reduce the speed in that area

and also ensure that our students are

safe when they're going to school and

coming out

um between the months of August and May

or June, they're in school. So, I think

that the improved crossings, the

lighting, any cameras or anything that

we can to slow the speed down so that

our uh pedestrians are safe. That

includes the children also there. So,

thank you for being here again.

Thank you, Councilwoman Daniels. Any

questions?

And no questions. Thank you. Thank you.

Um if there are no further questions,

thank you uh for your participation. I

move to add resolution 29 of 2025 to our

next legislative session agenda for a

formal vote. Next, we have resolution 30

of 2025. Mr. Parker, could you please

read it into the record?

Resolution 30 of 2025, a resolution

authorizing the city of Harrisburg to

negotiate and enter into a reimbursement

agreement with the Commonwealth of

Pennsylvania to facilitate the purchase

and installation of certain waterway

enhancements to better serve the health

and safety needs of Boers.

Thank you. Good evening, Chief

Enderline. if you wouldn't mind

providing an overview of resolution 30

of 2025, please. Sure. Good evening.

Uh, resolution 30 of 2025 actually

piggybacks on resolution 76 of

2024 that council uh passed back in

November. So, this uh that original

agreement was to allow us to enter into

a an agreement uh intergovernmental

agreement with the Pennsylvania Fish and

Boat Commission of Pendot. This now is

actually the funding mechanism how

PennDOT uh will pay us back uh up to and

including $2 million for those waterway

improvements at the Dock Street Dam. And

they are uh they have to install buoys

um at the dam for their project at both

the 83 bridge as well as the Market

Street Bridge. And we wanted to try and

uh speed that up and get that done

because we have an interest in also

protecting the dam.

Okay, thank you. Um, I don't have any

questions. I'll open the floor to my

colleagues who may have some questions

for you. I'll begin with our public

safety committee chair, Councilman

Jones. Any questions? Thank you. Um,

just for clarification. So, um, they

won't put the buoys in until the 83

project or you're trying to speed that

up if that's what I heard. Correct. So,

we uh just Saturday we installed the

buoys uh at the dam. So, it's an annual

thing that we have to do. These buoys

would be permanently attached to the

bedrock in the uh river so that we don't

have to go out there every year and

replace them. They'll also be bigger u

and more visible than what the

regulation buoys um that are called out

in the uh the state's um guidance. Um so

they'll be big, they'll be bold, and

you'll see them without any issues.

Yeah, I can remember that uh resolution

we did um discussing it. So the only

other question I have is um how safe

would these be to make it much safer? Um

obviously maybe you know one of the

things that we're looking at and the

challenge one of the challenges with the

river here in Harrisburg it's nearly a

mile wide. Uh if you are in a kayak and

a canoe or lose power to your boat um

you you got to be a pretty strong

willing person to overcome that current

and the wind. um once you lose that

power and and being a mile wide, it

means you got to paddle at least a half

mile to get to the other shore, right?

And uh one of the things that we believe

is that these will be big enough that

you'll be able to actually grab on to

and and if you're in trouble.

Yeah. Thank you. That was just more for

um you know, for our public that's

listening. You know, hopefully everybody

takes heat. I know the river is

beautiful, but it can be very dangerous

at times, and we just want to make sure

we're doing what we can to keep

everybody safe. So, no further

questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Any

questions? Thank you, Madam President.

Chief, always a pleasure. Always good

great seeing you and um hearing of all

the good work you and the team are doing

in the city. Thank you. And surrounding

areas so much. Absolutely. So, by

enhancing this and adding the buoys and

other things, this could in return kind

of add some tourism back, getting more

anglers in the area, more boers in the

area because they feel safer in the

waters. Would that be accurate to say?

Yeah, I I think at the end of the day,

Fish and Boat believes that. Um, there

will be a time in full disclosure uh

when that bridge project is going on

that there's going to be a significant

portion of the river that will be

inaccessible due to construction issues.

So, um there there will be a loss to the

boating public and and the fishing

public, but at the end of the day, once

this project's done, it will uh give

greater safety and a and a better idea

of where you can go and where you can't

go in the long term. Long term, correct?

Absolutely. Thank you. No further

questions. Thank you, Councilwoman Ross.

Any questions? Thank you, President

Hill. Good evening, Director Innerline.

I don't have any questions. I know it's

something that um needs to be done and

I'm glad that the buoys will be larger

as you said for people to be able to

grab a hold of if um they need to get to

safety. So I don't have any questions.

Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Vice

President Green. Any questions? Thank

you, President Hill. Um I don't have any

questions. Um I think uh the safety of

the dam is something that's been

discussed for a long time. So I'm just

glad to see something moving forward. So

thank you. We are excited as well.

Thank you, Councilwoman Davis. Any

questions? Thank you. No questions.

Thank you for your work. Thank you.

Thank you, Councilwoman Daniels. Any

questions?

And no questions. Thank you. Thank you

very much for being here this evening. I

move to add resolution 30 of 2025 to our

next legislative session agenda for a

formal vote. Next we have resolution 37

of 2025. Mr. Parker, could you please

read it into the record?

Resolation Resolution 37 of

2025. a resolution authorizing the city

of Harrisburg to negotiate and enter

into a co-sponsorship agreement with TLC

workbased training program incorporated

for the implementation of a workforce

development program in an amount not to

exceed

$75,000. And if I may add, there are

brochures and added information placed

on your desks about this program.

Thank you, Mr. Parker.

Um, who is present from the

administration to discuss the

resolution? Um, President Bowers. U Miss

Reed is here as well. And Mr. Castile

had just reached out. He's coming across

the bridge. So,

okay. Um, you're welcome to have a seat.

I guess our office will speak for this

for the moment. Uh okay. This is this is

the uh uh a mayor's proposal uh for a

workforce program um that uh our office

then made inquiries uh with Mr. Castile

and regarding the educational portion of

it which is the ABC I forget the full

name of the school that does Keystone

that does the training. uh it has um

four-year program, but it also has a

one-year program where you can get a

certificate in one one area versus a

series of areas over four years. So, it

would be basically the initiation of a

project for one year. The $75,000 from

the instruction from the mayor was that

would represent a contribution to five

of the students uh education and wages.

You know, that it's partnership, but

these people are going to be paid and

and I think the I think Mr. Castile can

speak to that better. and misread. Um

but and there's so there's both tuition

at the school and there's cost. So this

is a it's not even close to most of the

money per student, but it's a

contribution by the city towards

workforce development for and and it's

for five individuals is the initial uh

time and as far as I know it's the first

time the city's gone into a workforce

development related project. So it it is

sort of I think for everybody see how

this goes if it works. It's been a

discussion for a long time by lots of

city officials. Um, so, um, but again,

Mr. Castile is gonna be able to speak to

it better. And Miss, you can speak to

it. Okay. Um, well, if you don't mind, I

would like to wait for Mr. Castile. That

way, we can have a full conversation and

we won't be interrupted. So, if you

wouldn't mind, you can come. We'll bring

it back when he arrives and we'll move

on to the next resolution just to keep

things moving. Thank you. Um, we'll move

to resolution 41 of 2025. Mr. Mr.

Parker, could you please read it into

the record? Resolution 41 of

2025, a resolution authorizing the city

of Harrisburg to negotiate and enter

into a professional services agreement

with Conrad Seagull Incorporated to

provide an actuarial review of the

city's healthc care program.

Thank you.

um who on behalf of the administration

um can provide an overview on resolution

41.

Thought Sam was doing it, but I do not

see him. Don't see him.

That's what I thought, but I just I

didn't know if I was missing something.

Okay.

Um, do you mind

coming on behalf of Conrad Seagull?

Good evening. Good evening. If you

wouldn't mind introducing yourself. Yep.

My name is John Sapoch. I'm a partner

and consulting actuary with Conrad

Seagull. Okay. if you wouldn't mind um

sharing a little bit about the scope of

the work um that's contained in this

agreement. Sure. So the the scope of the

agreement effectively is to review the

healthcare benefits, the the operation

of the plan. So the contracting for

administrative services with the medical

carrier, the prescription drug

contracting, the stop-loss contracting,

effectively the financial elements that

don't in any way alter benefits or

networks or anything like that. um you

could call it looking for efficiency.

It's also it's been several years to the

best of my knowledge since a

professional like like myself has looked

at the plan. So it's sort of to check

and make sure that things are operating

as efficiently as they can and also to

evaluate the potential opportunity for

the plan to go out to bid and try to do

competitive contracting which there

there's pitfalls to that. So this

project falls short of that full

exercise. It's evaluating the

opportunity for it. and looking to

achieve efficiencies or if nothing else

certify that the plan is contracted

effectively.

Thank you. Is there anything else the

law bureau would like to add on behalf

of the administration?

Uh no, other than that this is one of

the largest expenses the medical care

that we provide in the budget. So, you

know, once in a while when we look at it

to see whether the money is being spent

wisely um and the benefit commitments

are being fulfilled is of I think value

to the taxpayers and to the frankly city

staff and our retirees.

Thank

you. I don't think I have any questions

at this time. I'll open the floor to my

colleagues who may have some questions

for you. Um I'll begin with our budget

and finance committee chair, Vice

President Green. Do you have any

questions? Thank you, President Hill.

Um, I'll start off with saying I think

this is something that we need, uh,

especially because over the last year or

so, uh, we've had to go back a couple of

times and and increase the amount of,

uh, medical in our lines, um, for our

budget. So, I think it's really

important. Um, will this help us to

estimate the cost when we're working on

our budget? It will, at least for the

current year. Part of what I'm going to

do is a trend analysis, but I will also

do like an actuarial rate development

for whatever your next budget cycle is

based on the rates that or the data that

I collect. Okay. Um I think that's all

that I have. Um just to note that the

contract is not to exceed $20,000 and

then you have your hourly rates listed

out. Y they look a little high, but I

don't know the don't know the market.

I think that's all the questions I have.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,

Councilwoman Davis. Any questions? Thank

you. No questions for me. Okay,

Councilwoman Daniels, any questions?

No questions. Thank you. Thank you,

Councilwoman Ros. Any questions? Thank

you. Good evening. Thank you for coming.

I don't have any questions. I know it is

something that does need to be done. So,

thank you. Thanks, Councilman Rodriguez.

Any questions? Thank you, Madam

President. Uh, thank you for joining us

this evening. And I'm just uh privy to

how um dire we could benefit from these

services. I mean I know with fire and

police you know it's a eb and flow goes

up and down as far as healthcare and

they need it. So we never want there to

be an opportunity where like hey we

can't take care of you guys. So um have

you gotten a chance to really take a d a

deep dive into our healthcare plan

already or is it something you plan on

doing once it's approved? It's something

I'd have to do after it's approved

because some of the data I'd get would

be confidential so it would all happen

post. I have a familiarity with the

benefits and years ago actually I've

done some work on the retiree plans

through my firm, but that's a long time

ago. In current terms, I have a

familiarity with the structure, but not

the specifics of the claims in

particular or even the contracting. So,

besides your expertise and uh your

experience already in the field, what's

something you feel you can bring as far

as a benefit way to the city of

Harrisburg? So, the prescription drug in

particular is something it's odds are

when costs are going up, especially

right now, a lot of it is driven by

prescription drug utilization. So, I

think part of this is to evalate the

contracting and make sure that's as

effective as it can be from a cost

efficiency perspective. Um I think

that's probably the biggest part of this

exercise is just to ensure that's a

complicated area and it's something I

spend a lot of time dealing with. This

is not about changing benefits like the

benefits are all set. This is about

trying to find efficiency within that

maximize them. Yeah. Exactly. Now um

what about consolidation? Is that

something you may be able to do in your

field as well? If you feel as though

there may be too many party ventures for

one, you know, plan. Would you be able

to consolidate or would that be changing

the plan? So, it's it's an excellent

question and it probably it part of the

evaluation here as to whether you could

do like an RFP type process to look at

consolidation of vendors. When you when

you change a vendor, there is inherently

a downstream change like things are

never exactly the same. And I don't know

without more time to talk with legal and

things like that, what would like a true

benefit change. So, I'm Is it possible?

I would see an opportunity for it. Yes.

Does that mean you can act on it? Not

necessarily, but it is something I'll

look at. And that's fair. Thank you for

that answer. No further questions.

Thank you, Councilman Jones. Any

questions? Uh, yes. How you doing today?

Good. How are you? Good. Good. Uh, my

question would be, uh, I know it said

it's not to exceed 20,000. However, um,

what's the anticipated hours do you

anticipate to get this done? And um so

if you don't reach the 20 and and and I

mean if you do and have to exceed do you

have to come back and ask for more

money? It's it's capped and based I

based on where the cap is I expect I

would reach it in all likelihood but it

is capped. There is no fee after when I

reach the fee cap all the extra hours

are on my I wouldn't come back and ask

for more. So you don't have an like a an

estimated hour.

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Um I I'll say this. I think it'll go

over the my time will go over but the

bill will be capped at 20 based on the

scope of the work even just the initial

meeting that we had done. But I want to

keep this within a reasonable budget

basically for this type of exercise.

Stop at 15. 15 is good. You can stop.

No thank you. That's all I have.

Thank you. Um, if there are no

additional questions, did you want to

add anything to the discussion? Um, I'm

sorry I'm late. I thought this meeting I

started at six o'clock. So, no, no, it's

a work session even 5:30. I understand.

That was my my mistake. So, and if I

look at the thing, it does say 5:30. So,

I apologize for that. And I appreciate

Conra being here to answer your

questions and

and hope I'll have to go back and look

at it and make sure things are right.

Uh, I can't really hear on my end. I'm

sorry, what? She can't hear you. If you

wouldn't mind either moving closer to a

microphone or using that one. Thank you.

Yeah, I think the objective here for us

uh as an administration was, you know,

our health insurance has cost us $14

million a year. Take to take a look at

it at least u from this perspective to

see whether we can save money at all. I

think it's worthwhile to spend this

small amount of money um to find out

whether going fully insured or or

staying self-insured is is most cost

effective. And I think doing it over the

summer, we actually started this process

back in February with the human resource

department, myself and the finance

director. And u so we actually

interviewed a couple different firms,

Blue Cross being another one, and they

were I think their fee was like $70,000.

So this is the was the most cost

effective way of doing it. So I would

appreciate your support. I mean is it

potentially a savings of of a couple

million dollars potentially. Whether

that's true or not I I won't know

anything. And it's hard to make a

decision until you actually know what

those numbers look like. So I think

that's the biggest thing is we need to

find out you know whether fully insured.

And I've done this process before where

we went from, you know, high deductibles

to low deductibles and fully insured on

abandoned coverage and we were able to

save a quarter of a million dollars a

year and that was when I was in Mount

Joy PA. So whether we can save money

here, we won't find out for a month or

two. So and if you have any other

questions for me, please don't hesitate.

Thank you. Are there any other

questions, council members? Yes. So if

if if you don't um you don't really know

how much it will save. So if you see

once you once he comes back with his um

assessment and you look at it um is

there a possibility that you can switch

to another provider and put out other

RFPs to continue to save money for the

city? Well, the the RFPs are from a

twofold perspective. one is to do an RFP

for fully insured and another RFP to do

um self-insured. So, we'll we'll get

both of those numbers together and we

have to look at it doing an analysis and

say which one is going to save us money.

We we may end up staying exactly where

we are, but we don't know that and you

won't know that until you actually see

the numbers. That was my question. Like,

so if you once you see the numbers, is

there a potential for you to to switch

or like you just said, you can stay

right where you are? quite likely we

could we could switch. I'm not opposed

to switching. I'm not um and this is

something I actually discussed in my

interview process. Okay. Um you know, so

that was in what September or so of last

year. We had the discussion in my

interview. um when I was before that

panel about looking at our insurance and

that was an objective of the

administration and I said I've done that

before and explained the process I went

through when I was in Mount Joy and I

said until you do the RFPs and so to do

an RFP to be self-insured and do an

separate simultaneous RFP to be uh fully

insured you have to do that and look at

the numbers and be willing to change if

if that warrants it. Um, I mean, if

you're able to save I'm going to throw

out a number, so don't hold me to this.

If you can save a million dollars a year

in coverage, you know, why wouldn't you

do it? I don't know why, but we can't

make that decision as an administration

and and you as a council until we

actually see what the numbers look like.

You answer my question. Thank you.

Are there any other

questions? Okay, seeing hearing none, I

move to add resolution 41 of 2025 to our

next legislative session agenda for a

formal vote. Thank you. Thank you. Um,

I'd like to return to resolution 37 of

2025. Mr. Castile is present.

That's what I was going to suggest

sitting here. I don't know what what's

wrong with that microphone.

Thank you.

Yeah. Good evening. How are you? How you

doing? I'm doing fine.

Um Mr. Grover provided a brief overview

of resolution 37 of

2025 regarding

um the city's negotiation

um of entering into a co-sponsorship

agreement with TLC Workbased training

program incorporated for the

implementation of a workforce

development program in an amount not to

exceed

$75,000. So we were just trying to

understand um from your perspective a

little bit more about um perhaps the

five students who might be participating

or those that are eligible to

participate and what the program might

entail.

Um um good evening. The five students is

basically whoever first come first

serve. We work with hard to place

individuals, ex-offenders, veterans,

whoever is interested in uh learning in

training in construction. Um we don't uh

I'm sorry. Can you move that microphone

closer to you? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

Our um five students is for exoffenders,

veterans, hard to place individuals,

anyone that's interested in in learning

in the construction trade. uh our

apprenticeship program uh TLC workbased

training we're in a partnership with ABC

contractors association where we're a

member of ABC but we were doing our own

thing at first for seven years and then

I became a member of ABC uh contractors

association uh our apprentichip program

is certified through labor and industry

but uh ABC I mean TLC's is certified

through labor and industry as as well as

ABC's is certified through ABC

contractors association. But uh I found

that it was easier for me to build more

capacity and utilize more people in my

own community if I uh partner with ABC

because they have a variety of trades.

It ain't just carpentry. The only thing

I do is carpentry. They do HVAC,

plumbing, carpentry, and all the trades.

So the person don't have to say they

want to do carpentry. They could say

they want to do HVAC or plumbing and I

can still uh get them in because I'm

already a member. So um the through TLC

workbased training uh our program we

train them give them uh classroom

training but we do field work. So uh TLC

workbased training is a developer in the

city of Harrisburg. We utilize our

trainees on our own projects uh where

they get the hands-on skills and uh even

on other projects besides my own

personal projects. We do uh you know

whatever project we we uh land with the

for-profit construction company. Um um

far as how we will utilize it like the

apprentichip program, it runs from uh

like a regular school year September to

May. Uh we had guys that was already in

it, but we want to and I paid for them

myself, but uh the city wanted to

partner up and bring uh a few more guys

on. So they said they wanted to see if

they going to like a pilot. They wanted

to get five people trained. So I said,

"I can get you five people or run them

through ABC, work with us, and then we

can still get their hands on working

with TLC." And then but the the good

thing about partnering with ABC is other

contractors that's members and if they

need help with uh or or want to take a

few trainees to work with them they can

still whatever trade it is because like

I said I I spec specifically do

carpentry. If they doing HVAC or

plumbing, it might be a plumbing

contractor need apprentice. They can run

through there. And then it's uh the

apprenticeship program like you can test

out like it's a four-year apprentice.

But if you can test and you feel you're

not on apprenticeship one level, you

test do a a test and you pass and they

say, "Oh, well these should be

apprenticeship." You you know, you move

a little further and faster. But it's a

credential uh program. They've been in

business since 1972. And uh we I mean I

gave you guys a pamphlet of ABC and TLC

workbased training program. So you can

you know it's a accredited program been

around for a long time. So and ABC's

nationwide.

Okay. Um, so I

guess

following the apprenticeship program,

what happens next to these five

individuals? Are they do they

automatically gain employment? Do they

have a series of certifications where

they could move on? Well, they get

certifi certifications if they pass what

they need to pass at ABC. Okay. And um

like they're not guaranteed with me. I

mean like you got to you know do your

credit hour attendance all that play a

part. So if you're not you know showing

up and doing what you supposed to do I

mean you're not nobody's going to

guarantee you work just because you know

you you was uh you paid for a program.

You got to participate and you know show

up basically you know do your thing. And

if you do what you supposed to do, I

going to guarantee you if you working in

carpentry with me, I would I would

definitely guarantee because I'm trying

to build my team and capacity with

people from my own community.

Okay. And then I have one more question.

And so if this is a pilot program, how

are we

evaluating the program to make sure that

okay, well these five individuals

successfully completed the program,

maybe we could expand it next year or

what what will the evaluation process

look like? Well, the evaluation process

is basically are they showing up? Is

their attendance uh uh uh how are they

showing up every day? Are they

participating? Are they uh gaining? You

know, because it's going to show from

when they taking these tests. Is is they

uh you know, basically is they learning

anything? And if they are uh we show we

going to be able to show we going have

documentation that you know this is

what's happening. This is uh uh this

person learned this, this person learned

that. But we we want to use people that

want to be there. I don't want to like

um sometimes people just push people in

the program just because but if they

don't want to be there I don't you know

most of the time they're not going to

the the the be want to they're not going

to really gain anything if they don't

want to be there. We want people that

want to be there because at the end of

the day uh uh the teachers uh they have

a

u uh how would you

say they have

Uh they want people that want to be

there basically and we want people out

by them coming through TLC workbased

training. I want people that want to be

there not because we stipulated them

there or we said oh we going to pick

these people. No we want people that

want to learn the trade because I I

listened in on a lot of things been

going on in our community and even in

the election everybody was saying about

training. I've been doing this stuff and

like I said is a lot of times I don't

market but I partnered up with another

entity that's larger that we can broaden

the base because it's not a far as

capacity in our own community even in

our vote techch in the city we don't

have it and uh by me at the table I can

bring in as many as I can because

they're I mean these they had 500 and

some students there and and they

partnered up with Dolphin County, VC,

Burks County, Cumberland County,

Lancaster County, Vex, but I don't see

none of us there. The only reason they

at the table now is because they coming

through TLC workbased training. So, they

say they would partner with Dolphin

County, but I don't I don't really see

it. But like I said, but with us at the

table, I know for a fact they there and

they doing a good job.

I just the guys that I put in last year,

they just finished up their first year

and they got like three certifications

already and uh they looking forward to

go back for their apprenticeship too

this coming September.

Thank you. And madam president because

this is a negotiating and into

resolution the the administration with

Mr. Castile can work in some kind of

report back thing. So the condition so

the council will get information on how

the program went because if it works

well I think everybody wants more people

in the city trained into a skill set

that they can make a living on. So um

but we can work that condition into the

agreement. Thank you. Um I did have

another question. I'm not sure uh

solicitor Grover if it's appropriate for

you or a finance. Um where is the

funding coming from?

Um, I will I I think finance has to

answer that question. Okay. I'm sure

someone told me, but I don't.

Um, if I'm correct, it's in the budget

resolution that's coming up next. So, if

you look at that, it does show the the

funds where it's coming from. Okay.

Well, will to be continued. I just

wanted it on the record for this

conversation. But, thank you. Um, I

don't have any other questions. I'm

going to open the floor to my colleagues

who may have some additional questions

uh regarding the program and

partnership. I'll begin with our

community and economic development

committee chair uh Councilwoman Daniels.

Do you have any questions regarding

resolution 37 of 2025?

Yeah. From the city's portion, where is

the 75,000 coming from?

That is something we're discussing in

our budget resolution um which is coming

up next. But if you give me a moment uh

let's see I have it pulled up

here. I believe it shows that it's

coming from the general liability

premium, the public office and official

premium and the police professional

premium. Looks like where it's moving

from those three lines.

So, are those um insurance policies

or or trainings? They look like they are

insurance policies.

I think finance can speak to that better

when they get up here. Yes. To be

continued. Okay. Okay. And then I I some

of this the information kind of kept

going in and out. So, apologies if you

already answered this.

Um our portion is just a what we're

contributing is just a portion of the

cost. What's the total cost per

student? Typical cost uh HVAC is close

to 4,000 uh uh a year. Uh carpentry is

3,000 some odd dollars. They roughly

roughly between 35 to 4,000. the rest

the balance will be getting their tools,

their their equipment, uh buying

material, you know, to practice with,

you know, and that's really very cheap

because actually I I have uh other grant

laboring industry that basically covers

a lot. But since you're only doing five,

this is basically a small portion of

that we just going, you know, I have

other grant sources that uh help train

bringing in another five is that's

that's pretty cheap because you got to

still do administration.

Okay. And I think that's it for me. I'll

follow up during the budget session.

Okay. Thank you. Uh Vice President

Green, any questions?

Uh yes, I have a couple questions.

First, thank you uh for being here

tonight. Um, first, I know you said that

it's open to anyone, but are there age

requirements to participate in the

program? Well, it's 18 to, you know, I

would say 35. Uh, because we have two

gentlemen around 29, 30, but I mean,

it's 17 if you've been, you know, you're

out of school or whatever. You know,

some people graduate early. It's their

age. It start around 17 until

definite. must they have a high school

diploma?

Not necessarily. You know, because it's

a lot of trades when you don't have a

high school diploma because certain

things certain trades you don't have to

have u a GED or a diploma. I mean, long

as you know the fundamentals of uh

basically how to measure, cut, stuff

like that, you know, you don't have

that.

All right. Um what's the total length of

time? Did you say four years? It depends

on what you taking up. Uh if you want to

become a journeyman, it's going to take

you four years. If you just want to uh

learn how to hang drywall, it might only

take you a couple months. If you just

want to do roofing, it might take you a

couple months. But if you trying to be

well-rounded and the whole thing of

carpentry, it's going to take you four

years. You know what I mean? So,

okay. And then other like I said uh

plumbing and uh HVAC is different but

I'm telling you what carpentry is is is

going to take you four years. Okay. To

be a journeyman. All right. And so the

funding would cover the tuition pretty

much for five people for four years. No,

one year. You have to apply every year.

Okay. So every year they would reapply.

Yes. Okay. Well, I don't apply for them.

I'm going try to apply and get the

funding for cover because I I even make

my own guys pay. I pay for it myself and

I go after funding. All

right, let me see. So, it's basically

free for the students, right? I try to

get funding.

Okay. Um, is this your first time

partnering with ABC? Yes.

But I had my own apprenticeship for

seven years, right? Um, so for the ABC

program, this is a pilot for that whole

partnership. I know pilot with the

partnership with me is a pilot with the

city like far as you know this is my

first time working with the city I know

I'm asking have you worked with ABC

before like your company have you guys

had a partnership with ABC and TLC?

Yeah. So that's that's established. Yes.

All right. That's that was my question.

Was that new or was I know that the the

partnership with the city is new but

you've worked with TLC before and had

success with the program before. Yes.

All right. Um, and do you have like the

statistics on how many people have come

through your program? I know you might

not have it tonight, but if you could

get it to us, that would help. Well, far

as the ABC, no, because I only been

sending guys through this year through

ABC and our partnership

before I had before I had the

partnership with ABC. We were already

doing ourselves, but we had our own shop

up.

Okay. Okay, if you could just get us the

numbers of how many people that you've

worked with um have completed your

program, just the success of it, so we

can kind of look at that, that would be

helpful.

Um and then I guess my last question for

the moment is how did the partnership

with the city happen? Like I know we've

talked about it a couple of times about

like how we can um have apprenticeship

programs. I believe during our ARPA

funding, we had a very deep conversation

and actually allocated money towards a

internship program um for for the

residents of Harrisburg. So I I

originally thought the money would have

been coming out of there. And so when I

saw that it was being pulled from

different directions, I was like, "Okay,

pretty cool. I guess maybe the city's

still looking uh to do a internship

program on its own or with another

partnership uh which I think we could

benefit from having more than one." But

I guess just kind of how the idea come

about. Was it just like a conversation?

Did you come to the city? Did they come

to you? So it was a conversation. I

guess it was during God uh debate and

then uh people everybody was talking

about it. So I said, "I already been at

it." So she asked me, "Would they be

willing to teach other people?" I said,

"Yeah, I've been doing it." So city just

came on board. So it's not, you know, I

kind of, it just came up in a

conversation, but I was at the base.

Okay. So it was kind of organic. Yes. It

wasn't like you sent a proposal into the

city or anything like that. Okay.

All right. Thank you. I think that's all

the questions I have for the moment.

Thank you. Thank you. Uh, Councilwoman

Davis, any questions?

Thank you, President

Hill, and good

evening. And I want to say

congratulations on this um dual

partnership.

Um my questions

are, is there a probationary period

for any of the

students? Um to say if if they're not

meeting the goals or they're not up to

par, is there a probationary period in

the program? No, I would say it's

probationary period. Now, they'll take

they'll take an aptitude test before

they even, you know, uh we enroll say

we're going to select this person, we're

going to select that person and white

say three out of the five we we you sent

didn't pass a not going to be able to go

into the class. So, you have to give me

some somebody else, but they got to take

an aptitude test.

Okay. And I think my other questions

were answered, so I'll pass. Thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you, Councilwoman

Ros. Any questions? Thank you, President

Hill. Thank you for being here tonight,

Mr. Castile.

Um, a program of course we definitely

need in the city. I know something we've

been talking about with workbased um it

came up with the ARPA money like we were

just saying where we thought it was the

money was probably coming from for

workbased programming. So, thank you for

um being willing to um want to partner

with us in some type of way to uh get

some workforce development done within

our city.

Um most of my questions have actually

been answered um or asked at least.

Um I think my biggest thing was um if

this gets past just look seeing the

metrics of it like coming back and being

able to say okay um you know this worked

it didn't work or this is what we could

have done better this how many students

um actually did well as we combined with

ABC. So, I think um if you were just

willing to, you know, share that out um

after the first year, that would be

helpful to see if it does need to

continue. Um and as you said, it was a

pilot program. Um carpentry takes four

years, but you would be um if everything

goes as planned, you would be wanting to

come every year for the 75,000 because

this would only take care of this year.

And it would start, what would you say?

September to May. So it would start this

September and go to next May. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Um that's more of the

classroom. You can do hands on

before that's the teacher, right? Okay.

So start hands.

Okay. Thank you. I think yes, I think

that that's it. Most of my questions

been answered. So Okay. Thank you.

That's it for me. Thank you, Councilman

Rodriguez. Any questions? Thank you,

Madam President. Thank you, Mr. Castile,

for joining us this evening. Um, see a

lot of your projects around the area.

Highly impressive. Thank you for all the

work you've been doing for the duration

of time you've been doing it. Um, on the

website right now, looking at the

asbestos removal training, I think

that's impressive as well with a lot of

our historic buildings in the city. You

know, that's a huge issue. Uh, William

Penn, etc., etc. So, thank you for your

work. Um, I have no questions. I just

look forward to seeing the

accomplishments and how this pans out

throughout the course and u hopefully we

could develop that system of metrics

where we can get some kind of feedback

to see how everything's going to see how

the students excel throughout the

program, etc. So, thank you. All right,

no further questions. Thank you,

Councilman Jones. Any questions? Yes.

Uh, thank you for coming through this

evening. Um, so what's your blood type

and your social security? No. Um

uh one of a lot of my questions have

been asked and answers but one of the

things I would uh like you for you to

explain just throw in um part of the

cost of the training that you have with

the youth. First of all, where you pull

where are you pulling or pulling these

um young individuals from and when does

the some of this goes to some of the the

training costs and some of the materials

but what about OJT for those individuals

or can they make money while going

through this? Yeah, if they doing on the

job training, uh I do pay for on the job

training and most all contractors when

they pull people from the uh classroom

to work with them, they always getting

paid on the job training. So, uh the

money like I said um you calculate

the 4,000 just say average 3500 per the

4,000 depending on what they taking.

uh calculate that times five. Then

calculate their m their tools and uh

equipment that they going to need uh

their uh you know

uh materials that they going to utilize.

Uh that's honestly it's a wash

because materials is to the roof at

$75,000 is a wash. Not really. We're

going to be supplying a lot of the

materials anyway, but they're with the

the train if they mess up something,

it's not costing them. Nobody likes to

train people and it's not it's costing

them. So, at the end of the day, you

know, they going to make mistakes. So,

that's why, you know, we uh have money

in for materials, but we we go after

other funding, not just with the city.

Uh have people doing training. They got

to be able to uh do on the job training.

They going to make mistakes because

they're new. If they cut something wrong

or did this wrong, we got money to pay

for the material. So, um, one of my

other questions was with that is like

where do you select these individuals

from? I know you had a range from 17 to

35. So, that Well, most of the time we

just uh people come to us. I like I

said, our marketing is far as TLC work.

I didn't used to market it like that.

People already just knew like they come

to us on on a construction site asking

and they work with seen find out what

type of experience they got. Most of

them didn't have any experience. So we

might um what how I used to do is just

have them go to the uh classroom up the

up the up the building and sign up and

then uh you know we do a little test to

see what they know where they at. And

like I said most I ain't going to say

most a lot didn't have no background or

they didn't couldn't pass that test. So,

end of the day, u you know, if they

didn't they don't have basic math

skills, it's it's hard to train

somebody. So, at the end of the day, I'm

not here to teach you the basics of

math. So, if you not saying just I'mma

count you out, but we can point you with

ABC where they point you, they'll start

you out with basic. They do teach all

that type of stuff. I don't do that. But

they will teach the fundamental ABC

Keystone ABC Keystone will teach you the

the basic maths and stuff to get you up

to par because you, you know, without

those type of uh classes that bring you

up to par, you're not going to be able

to succeed in construction. Basic math

is a necessity. So my question would be

for

administration. Um are they look is

administration also looking to help with

the selection? Are they going to to

partake? I I I we the city as I

understand was not going to be involved.

We're simply supplementing what has

already started so that more opportunity

is available.

Okay. So uh the other thing I will ask

you uh Mr. Castile is um sustainability.

I know this is a pilot program. So let's

say I come into the program and I just

want to do drywall, right?

I can leave out of there and that's a is

that that's a part of uh your

construction program or your carpentry

program. So that individual will be able

to go right to work just in that area if

they if that's all they want to learn

and they go through there and learn what

they need in carpentry I mean drywall

and I feel that they they ready to work.

Yeah. So and you also has said you

mentioned that you've done this for

seven years on your own already. So the

sustainability when um this program is

over, let's say we use all of the

75,000 for uh the individuals, but they

haven't

completed the four-year process. They

only got to a certain level and the city

says, "Hey, you know, we don't like how

this turned out. Will you be able to

sustain those individuals afterwards

with the other funding that you get?"

Well, I I can, but you can sustain

people just with work period. They don't

have to continue to go to school because

if they learn what they want to learn

out of it because some people don't want

to do four years. They might learn

roofing and that's all they want to do.

So when we got jobs and we got roofing

to do, I'm putting them to work. So at

the end of the day, uh you know, once a

person get their own get their craft

together, they might not want to work

for me. They might want to go off and be

their own subcontractor and start their

own. That was my next question. They

these these accreditations are are are

nationally are recognized. Yes. So yeah,

ABC stuff is is is accredited

nationally. So at the end of the day, if

they get their certification, they don't

want to work for me, they want to sub

for me or sub from somebody else, they

can do that.

That's all I have. President Hill, thank

you.

Thank you. Um are there any other

questions? Mr. Castile. Vice President

Green. Yes. Thank you. I do have a

couple more questions. Um, one, if

someone's interested, how would they

apply?

To go up to the hub, up to the hub, the

the uh the hub of town Harrisburg and

apply there. But, uh, we have a website

that we going to attach to it once with

that, you know, around now. They got to,

you know, got to put that on the website

now because close to that time to start

getting people registering, selecting

who we going to utilize. And like I

said, the first five might not be pass

the test. So, we not going to say the

first five depends on who uh pass the

aptitude out of the first group. Yeah.

That qualify is going to be able to go.

Okay. And then last question, if you

could just provide, I know you probably

already provided one to the city, but it

wasn't provided to us, like a cost

breakdown, a budget breakdown, so that

we can see like the cost predictions of

how much it's going to cost, make, you

know, like the overall cost of the

program. That's all I have. Thank you.

Thank you. Are there any other

questions? So there I think one detail

is missing is that I think the programs

all have a significant number of on the

job hours to get the

accreditation and I'm not the one who

was in that work. I think Jonathan

looked into that. So essentially if

you're in the four-year it breaks down

2,000 hours of on the job training a

year for if you're in the four-year it's

8,000. So and I believe that Mr.

Castillo is trying, you know, admirably

to at least pay people $ 15 to $20 an

hour, which if you're doing that, that's

all a full-time, you're talking almost

$40, $50,000 a person just on the on the

job training. The that's really where

the majority of the money is because the

majority of the hours and the work and

the time, that's where it goes to. So,

the ABC really is a small portion of the

actual money and that doesn't include

the administration costs and everything

else.

Real fast. Um I also wanted to get a

clarification

um just for the audience as well with

the

pre-apprenticeship and

apprenticeship pre uh we are appren we

have a certified apprenticeship through

labor industry pre-apprentice I mean

it's it's a little different I mean

people recognize you get certified

through a real apprenticeship

pre-apprentice you can get a certificate

but it's not a certification in whatever

How are you doing?

That's all.

Any other questions?

Okay, seeing and hearing none. Um, Mr.

Castile, there was some information

requested. So, I would like to receive

that information, have some time to

adequately review it um before moving

forward with this resolution for a vote.

um that may include additional questions

for you, but we'll let you know if we um

if any other questions come up after the

additional information is

shared. So, I'd like to um keep

resolution 37 of

2025 in the administration committee um

until we receive the additional

information requested.

Thank you for your participation this

evening. Um this concludes the work of

the administration committee. We will

move forward with our meeting agenda.

The next committee business you will

hear um will come from the budget and

finance committee. I will defer to our

budget and finance committee chair, Vice

President Green, to lead discussion.

Thank you, President Hill. Um, the next

resolution for the budget and finance

committee is resolution 28 of 2025. Mr.

Parker, could you read into the record,

please?

Yes. Resolution 28 of

2025, a resolution approving the third

proposed 2025 budget reallocation.

Thank you very

much. I believe the finance department

is going to give us a presentation and

overview.

Thanks.

[Music]

Good evening, gentlemen. If you wouldn't

mind introducing yourself and then uh

giving us an overview, I'd appreciate

it. Thank you.

Good evening, council. I'm Timothy

Brooks. I'm the budget manager.

Yes. Uh, good evening, city council

members. Brian McCutchen, county

manager.

All right.

All

right. So, before us today here is the

third proposed uh budget adjustment for

2025. Um, and let me turn this to I can

look at this a little bit easier. Um

what you'll see is uh in exhibit A uh

$75,000 requests uh for the proposed

budget adjustment enabling the skilled

trades training efforts benefiting youth

career path pro excuse me benefiting

youth career path program. I believe

that's alluding to uh Mr. Castillo and

uh his um comments. Um and then moving

down to exhibit B uh for

$45,000 which represents um uh to make

available funding for custodial supplies

uh needs within facility and maintenance

department. I'm open to questions at

this one.

All right, I'm just going to open it up

for questions. I'm going to start to be

my far right with Councilwoman Daniels.

Any questions?

I meant to say I'm gonna start with my

far left with Councilman Jones. Any

questions? Sure. So uh from my

understanding if I'm reading this

correctly it it came from the public

office and official premium where um the

available balance right now as of

5225 is

95,000 34 I mean

$340 and that's where they pulling the

whole 75 from

yeah okay

Yes. Uh, Councilman Jones, that actually

unc com a combining effect on these two

lines, the the footnotes A and B. Um,

the the 75,000 pertains to what was just

discussed, resolution

37, 2025, and the additional adjustment

of 45,000 related to facilities

maintenance for custodial. those two

asks for proposed adjustment total to

the 120,000. So how do we go about you

know funding that and in terms of this

this presents a pure reallocation from

available budgetary savings in the

insurance premium lines within general

expenses and and also the the police

professional premium.

um that came about by way of the the the

premium actually the premium for these

lines is a is a combined package that

the city pays in quarterly

installments and we actually they're

they're always due near the beginning of

the the quarter the calendar quarter. So

the quarter that was coming up at the

end of last year, the first quarter of

2025, there was actually enough budget

in the 2024 budget to accommodate the

the quarterly premium. Long story short,

what that h what that resulted in was

some budgetary savings. This was after

the the the 2025 budget was passed, but

there was an there was an opportunity to

pay that quarterly premium at at very

near the uh close to the end of December

of 24. So that achieves. So you're

saying there was a discount because you

paid the premium on time or before?

Not so much a discount. It was just

timing. We were able we were able to

accommodate a payment for the upcoming

quarter instead of having it paid in

January of 2025. It was paid right near

the end of 2020. There was some savings.

Exactly. So based on we we still have uh

one quarter to pay. Um, that's a a solid

number. And then the quarter that's

ending September, the city is an October

1 through September 30 insurance policy

period for just about all of our

coverages. So, we took a look at that

and and based on what we we know will be

the uh the quarter for September and

then the new premium when the city goes

to renew for the next policy period, it

there's a built-in increase, but it's

still an estimate. But we feel like

there's enough savings there to

accommodate these two uh requests that

are being brought forth this evening.

Okay. So, this question may be too early

to ask, but I'll ask it. So, let's just

say that this pilot program is

successful. Um I don't know if we'll be

in the same space or same opportunity to

be able to pull from these uh from these

line items. So, um, does the

administration have any idea how they're

going to do this moving forward? I would

suggest that's too early to ask, right?

And and even by the 2026 budget

discussion, um, I you won't be through

the whole year yet, right? There may be

an idea that it's working or it's not

working. Um, so, and if it's working, I

would assume it gets into the 2026

budget request. Um, but but you won't

really even have solid data for how the

year went. So, you know, assuming a

council adopts this before the end of

June, you know, you're going to really

have like a July 1 to June 30th

agreement, you know, to do this. And so,

you're you're going to take you're going

to have you're only going to be a little

bit in by the time you get to the

budget. Okay. And my last question is,

um, why was it chosen to be pulled from

here?

Uh, it's always good to do, we call them

reallocations. A pure reallocation is

just what this is. you you realize

savings in certain lines that you can

utilize in in other lines depending on

what

materializes. It's it's definitely a

preer preferred approach as opposed to

taking it from beginning of your cash

fund balance so as not to deplete that

and also not to to to skew the budget

that that's been approved. So, it's it's

just working within uh you know,

constantly reviewing the lines

throughout the year to see how certain

lines are developing. Um I I should

stop. I mean, Tim, if you have any more

I monitor the budget on a monthly basis,

sometimes even more than that. So, um

it's you. It is me. Yes. Um to be able

to find savings for things and

opportunities like this. So, um I hope

that's Does that answer your question?

Yeah, I you know I think again um um

going off of what uh Vice President

Green was talking about. I think there

was already a set aside at one point

with ARPA funding and just wondering why

it didn't, you know, come from there.

But, you know, you pretty much answered

my question. Now, here's Neil. Let's go.

No, I I don't know that it's in the 2025

budget, right? So when we're talking

about allocation versus reallocation, if

if it's in the general fund balance and

this and that's in the state grant

funds, not and it wasn't allocated for a

program this year, that would then be I

think from finances office a general

fund tapping into it and making the

budget larger for the year where this

keeps the budget at the same size.

Okay, no further questions.

I forgot it was me. Councilman

Rodriguez.

I'm sitting here thinking about other

things. Okay. I want to ask that

question. Okay. Councilman Rodriguez,

any question? Thank you, Madam Vice

President. Thank you, Mr. Brooks, Mr.

Brian, for joining us this evening. Um,

understanding uh the premium line items

we're pulling from. Do you see any or

foresee any future issues with us doing

this as far as the premiums? and you

know um the gentleman that just kind of

presented in front of us, he's going to

have oversight kind of making sure we

can incur more savings in the future. Um

so just knowing that there were savings

and we're kind of allocating it this way

or looking to allocate it this way, do

you foresee any potential issues that

this could cause?

As of today, I don't see any. I'll defer

to Brian.

Um, I certainly wouldn't want to come

back to these lines later on definitely

because now they're at a I feel like

they're at a because I looked at the

calculation. I I feel like they're at a

I'll call it like a minimal comfort

zone. Uh because again that last quarter

of this year is is an estimate and it's

insurance premium calculation based. But

you understand why my question could be

a little worrisome. Just want to make

sure we stay in a good pocket there. I I

I think I think we're we're in a good

spot there. Um and again if if if

something would come up

later you again it would be the same

take to try to look at lines that are uh

generating any type of savings. I think

I think this council's familiar with too

I believe um sometimes needs happen and

we we we can look at uh personnel line

savings that that might materialize

during the year which is totally

reasonable

to and and my view on that is to to

utilize budget that we know you know

based on uh detailed salary calculations

what may or may not be available.

Gotcha. Yeah. And then the 45,000 for

the custodial supplies. How much

cleaning are we planning on

doing? Sorry for my satire. I just had

to I had to

essentially um that was not budgeted

within the the budgeting process this

year. I believe right now the line is uh

and it's running in the negative and we

actually need to correct that line. So,

um, custodial services or supplies is

absolutely needed from year to year. Um,

and it was just for oversight that

happened during the budget process. And

these are non-p perishables like toilet

paper, paper towel, brooms, mops, dust

pans, like those kind of things. I'm

going to assume so. I would have to

defer to Mr. Baker for absolutes, but

yes. Okay.

Um, Neil, any idea by chance? So, so

this is a typical annual budget item

that inadvertently got zeroed out. So,

no, I don't really know which of the

many custodial cost it is, but that but

because it was zeroed, it's like if you

look at the number, it's like 20,000

negative in May. Okay. So, um so it just

when when it just is a line item error

in the process. Yep. And I mean I I

definitely trust your professionalism.

It's just that was checks and balances.

When you see 45K going into custodials,

it's kind of alarming, but once again,

totally trust your decision. And

hopefully this gets, you know, allocated

to where our employees can use it the

most. We have many buildings. Oh, I

know. I know. I know. But I wouldn't be

doing my due diligence if I didn't ask.

So, I appreciate you gentlemen joining

us. And um that's all I have. Thank you.

And if I may, Vice President Green, just

to follow up on that, uh Councilman

Rodriguez, uh Dave, the facilities

maintenance director, he came to us and

and made this request. we weren't

looking at it just from like an

independent look and and based on his

discussion to as as uh solicitor Grover

mentioned there's there's been activity

in this line and I think I think Dave

still anticipates more for the remainder

of the year so we're trying to cover

that that particular line would

um cost incurred in this line have to do

with like maybe resurfacing the pool

things of that nature would that play a

part in it or you're not too

Yeah. Yeah. I know they've done a lot of

work through parks and wreck. I just I

I'm not too sure on that myself, but I

know it's uh the typical custodial uh

items which include various cleaning

supplies maintenance uh for building

building maintenance various buildings.

If by chance you do come across that

answer, if you could communicate that

with Madam Vice President so she can let

us know, that would be great. Yeah, we

we can run a report and and and send

that out to you to show what's

transpired specific on that item alone.

That'd be great. Thank you. Okay. Can

you please clarify what you're what you

want us to Oh, just the um the 45,000

line for the uh custodial supplies

you're really referring to. It don't

have to be specifically itemized, but

just what in general would those Yeah.

Yep.

Thank you. Thank you, Councilwoman Ross.

Thank you, Vice President Green. Thank

you both for being here tonight and

explaining the reallocation. Um I don't

really have questions. I think mine were

just more of the concern because I know

before we ran into some issues with the

premiums um last time and we had to

reallocate money. So um I guess I'm just

a little, you know, on edge. I don't

want us to have to come back to that. Um

so I, you know, I'm just trusting you

all knowing you looked at it and you I

know Brian said we're we're at a a safe

zone. we're little bit of cushion. Um

but um I think just moving forward, my

thought process is if this program goes

as the way that we would like it to

because we do need this workforce

development. It's needed. We've talked

about it since I've been on council. Um

that we're looking at it in a proactive

way and not a reactive way. Um and

looking at where we're going to be

taking the money from. So we're standard

with that all the time. I know that's

just not up to you. that also comes down

from the administration and then we come

and approve it. But just making sure you

know um if that's something you can

advocate for please. Um and I just had

one question Mr. Grover actually just

came to mind. Um Solicitor Grover. So um

just for clarification clarification

because I know that we um council had

suggested and we put money aside in the

ARPA funds for uh workforce training.

Are you saying that they can't take that

money from there now because the

budget's been passed and that's

something that has to be a more

proactive exercise? So, this is really

understanding the fundamentals of the

budget process, right? Okay. You voted

for those programs in 2023. Yes. Um uh

the mayor sent down in then from the

roll forward in 2024 several of the

programs but not I think four of them

did not come through. So, none of them

were in the 2024 budget. So when there

was a roll forward of the 24 budget,

it's not there and it wasn't in the 2025

budget. So now it's just general fund

money just like any other general fund

money. Okay, that's not that is not

earmarked for any particular item. So

this goes there's always a fund balance

policy where you keep some money so you

have a basically a rainy day fund,

right? And so it's in basically that

general fund money and it's not

earmarked for any one thing. a program

could still be proposed by the mayor

with that money, but it would then come

out of the fund balance, right, in the

state grant funds where it is. So, um

but but in the budget process, if it

doesn't roll forward and it's not in the

budget, it doesn't exist anymore. Um the

contract process for government, you for

any contract that's over 12 months, it's

subject to a council's annual

appropriation. Um and I would encourage

you if if these are things you'd like in

the budget, that's part of the

negotiation process, right? when you're

negotiating for the for the next year's

budget, if you would like an item you

proposed in it, you know, that's talking

to the finance office, the the business

administrator and the mayor. We think

it's important to get this item back

into the budget. We had it before it it

dropped out. Um, and I that to me that

would be a normal negotiation process

between a council and the

administration, right? Well, we did kind

of do that this year, but it Well, but

no, but I'm saying it just did not get

to be an amendment into the budget for

2025. We did make some amendments with

programming but it didn't didn't go

through. So we kind of re that but no

that you're right. Okay. Thank you. So

gotcha. That's it for me. Thank you

President Bowers.

Nothing really seems normal here. But um

my question

around the choice to utilize um these

particular appropriations was asked and

answered.

Um, I will say and reiterate as I've

been saying, um, it would be

helpful to gain an update on the ARPA

programs that were

um,

approved. Um, just to know where we

stand because if I think if we did, we

wouldn't be asking about this funding.

we would have a better understanding of

what's happening with it

or nothing as you said. I I believe that

um was request I'm sorry I believe there

was a request back and forth earlier in

the spring and I think that um Mr.

Sulcowski, if I'm saying his last name

right, Sam was uh willing to come back

and have a presentation. Uh and uh I

that is my understanding. So I think

between the council and the business

administrator, I think they can make

that happen. I think he had uh the

finance office working on a report for

it. Um I don't know whether that report

was sent out or not.

No, we didn't receive anything. Um we

invited I don't know if she's the

interim director or the director. I

didn't see her um title on the news last

night. Um so I'm not sure what she is or

what her title is now for the department

of building and housing, but we invited

her as the majority of the approved

programming. Um it's our understanding

lies in that department. Um, so we

didn't communicate with the business

administrator as far as I know, but I'm

happy to follow up because I think um I

just think it will be helpful moving

forward so that there's no confusion as

to um which programs have been approved

and have movement forward if any um or

if there's anything to share regarding

the the funding. I will pass that

communication back forth. I would

frankly just recommend a discussion with

the business administrator's office who

oversees the rest of the staff to

coordinate it. And I would suggest that

the money is in at least three different

departments. PBHD is one of them, but

obviously parks and wreck is in another,

facilities in another. Um so so um I I

would suggest you know the best person

to coordinate all of that for would be

the business administrator and the

finance office. You know all of the

money gets spent because they go through

those offices.

Okay. Well, I don't have any other

questions um regarding the two

reallocations. Thank you. Thank you very

much, Councilwoman Davis.

Thank you, Vice President Green. Good

evening. Thank you for being here again

this

evening. A lot of my questions have been

answered through the discussion already.

I would just like to recap on the uh

report for the custodial supplies. I was

trying to understand where $45,000 of

custodial supplies, you know, were how

the money would be allocated. So, will

you be sending a list of supplies that

could be purchased? Is that

I could uh work with with uh department

head Baker for us to provide a list um

as well as provide a type of items um

that was purchased on that or has been

purchased on that line. Is that okay?

Okay. Thank you. And could you elaborate

a little bit

for myself as well as the public on the

insurance um piece where the money this

insurance money is it's it's money that

was not

spent and go ahead solicitor Grover I'll

take a crack at how's that they budgeted

for the full budget year for 2025 for

four quarters they got to spend the

first quarter money out of the 2024

budget. So there's a quarter of the

money was came out of last year's budget

at the end of last year instead of the

beginning of this year. So they budgeted

for the entire year but only now need

three quarters of the money. This is the

insurance premium which is not the

payment for actual health care cost.

Right? So when they came when we come

back for more money that's the actual

health care cost when we've come back.

This is the premium under the bundled

policy and we have many many forms of

coverage. Um and that's and this goes to

the third party administrators I believe

and the insurers as their premium the

fees for their administrative work on

the claims. So this is that annual

budget. My do I have that right Mr.

McCutchen? Oh yeah I wish I would have

said it that well first time but he's

right very accurate. Yes. Okay. Thank

you for clarifying. And then so this is

when we talk about insurance premiums,

medical insurance,

um what are the insuranceances that

right like the these particular lines I

mentioned there's a package it includes

these three lines but it also includes

like auto insurance premium uh general

liability premium excess liability. I

believe there's about five or six

different uh lines that make up the

package. So the the comfort there is

that the threearters of the expense has

is already solid for for this year. We

know that because again it's an October

through September time frame. We always

estimate the final quarter of the

calendar year based on what has

happened actual and feel based on prior

year experience what what the potential

increase would be.

So, as as Neil mentioned, there's a lack

of one quarter's worth of expense that's

not happening this year. So, that's

that's what's driving out the uh the

savings related to these lines. Okay.

Yeah. Thank you very much for

clarifying. Appreciate it. No other

questions for me. Thank you,

Councilwoman Daniels. Any questions?

Yeah. Are are there any items that could

not

be backfilled with CDBG funds?

I don't understand the question.

So what the items that uh the money is

being transferred out of they're pretty

close budgetwise, right? So, let's say

we didn't meet the budget goals. Are

those items

um can they be paid for through a CDBG

funds?

I don't know, but I don't think

so. I mean, CDBG has limits to what you

can do. For example, you can't use it

for general governmental operations and

things like that. But specifically,

you'd have to drill down on exactly what

the expenditure for to make that

analysis.

Yeah. So that's what I'm asking you. Are

these would be would these be

permissible expenditures because we

haven't allocated 23 24 and 25?

Yeah. That that that to me is a

completely different issue which a

budget that has to come down to council

for the past money into programming

money and for the CDBG home and ESG

funds. those budgets have to come down

to council for approval which should

include as they typically do some

additional funds out of programming

money. Um that money is those prior year

monies that weren't spent. That's what

the source of that is. Um and when the

budget's put together is when the

analysis of what can and cannot be spent

on. So I can't kind of do it off the

cuff. I don't know if anyone can uh

sitting here about an item for custodial

work or an item for a training program.

Um, I could I could imagine a way to

make a training program fit, but um that

is not what the administration proposed

as their source of

funding and it's not included in in the

documents that went to the annual pro

annual plan that comes down to council

for where the money is going to be used

for CDBG that they try to stick to the

parameters of that plan.

I made the X and H,

right? But my what this is looking like

is that we haven't made those

allocations. We have refused to be

transparent about the CDBG money and now

we're allocating money from line items

that look pretty precarious and then

we're going to suddenly going to get the

CDBG bill that kind of

backfills these these some of these

expenditures. So, we're not really being

transparent or

um or having honest conversations about

what we do and don't want to fund with

CDBG and and all of that stuff. Like I

think so that's basically I'm just

trying to figure out like how much of

this will we expect to come down to be

already be removed from the CDBG grants

that we that we should have allocated

already um as an emergency because we

need to catch up.

That's all.

I think that's it for me. Thank you very

much. Any other questions or comments

regarding schedule or exhibit

A? Seeing none, we can move on to

exhibit B. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, Vice President Green.

Uh, exhibit B relates to the footnote C

which is described there and this this

dovtales back to resolution 30 of 2025

related to the the Buoy installation

project for the Dock Street Dam. Um, so

it's the the the fund that's being

utilized here is the state grants fund

because that way it can be utilized from

the accounting side as a tracking. It's

it's a project and it it would be funded

by potentially this involved

reimbursement agreement with the

Commonwealth Pendot specifically. Uh

it's an estimated figure for the the

installation of of the concrete buoys

into the the riverbase. Um and it's it's

grant-like, if you will, even though

it's it it really is properly stated as

a reimbursement agreement so that the

funds can be outlaid and then submitted

to PennDOT for reimbursement back to the

city. But the the state grants fund

which is not of course the general fund

but but it's an ideal place to account

for this because we we do account for uh

projects and this is project budget

based based on the currently the 2

million. Uh so that's that's the content

of this particular uh

budget. I'll call it a project budget.

It's not it's not part of our uh our

budget ordinance that that that you that

was passed, but it's uh nonetheless it's

project budget for this particular

project.

Thank you very much. Uh I don't have any

questions. I'm going to start to my

right this time with Councilwoman

Daniels. Any questions?

Uh no, thank you. Thank you.

Councilwoman Davis, any questions? No

questions at this time. Thank you.

President Bowers, any questions? No,

thank you. I don't have any questions.

Excuse me. President Hill. Um,

Councilman Ross, any questions? No, I

don't have any questions. Councilman

Rodriguez, any questions? No questions

on exhibit B. Thank you. Thank you. And

Councilman Jones, any questions? I guess

I'll break it. Uh, no questions. Thank

you very much. Thank you both for your

presentation and for the information

tonight. Okay. I am going to ask that

this move to our next legislative

agenda.

Thank you. And that concludes the work

for the budget and finance committee.

Thank you. Thank you. Um we will now

move forward with our meeting agenda

with the public safety committee. I will

defer to our public safety committee

chair, Councilman Jones, to lead

discussion. Thank you. Uh, see codes

here. What's the money man?

All right. Uh, Mr. Parker, can you read

forgot about No, I didn't. Sorry. Can

you read bill 6 of 2025 please into the

record? Bill six of 2025 an ordinance

amending chapter

8-103 of the codified ordinances of the

city of Harrisburg known as the

electrical code to implement fees for

certain electrical inspections performed

by the city. Thank you. Uh you two mind

introducing yourselves and Mr.

Montgomery please give a quick overview

of bill six. Okay. Good evening, city

council. Ann Montgomery, Harrisburg City

Administrator. Hi. Michael Yervich,

Harrisburg City Codes Officer.

All right.

So, last year, uh, a new position passed

for the city to have their own

residential electrical inspector, which

will be Mick Yurovic here. Uh, so what

we're presenting tonight are the fees

for those inspections.

Okay. Um, so I'll just ask a couple

questions. Okay. Uh, just just for uh uh

the public viewing so they can

understand what this is. Um, I think it

was what 8 subsection I mean chapter 8

subsection 103 of of of that uh

ordinance.

So um my question would be um would this

help reduce uh the costs for homeowners

and if so um I don't know if you can say

by how much, but you think this will

help actually lower the cost for uh our

our homeowners in these uh dwellings

because of usually using that third

party and the expense that they would

incur going that way. Yeah. So, we

looked in uh local areas and third party

inspectors and what they were charging.

So, we're it's a fair fee that we're

presenting to you and it is a little bit

lower than what uh third parties were

charging before. And can you share the

fees just a couple of them like for

single a single family or if you want

to? Yeah. You know, so we have a couple

examples here and I'm just saying it's

because the public can't see it. Just

give you a couple numbers like a 200 amp

what that would cost for the

installation.

Okay. Yeah. So, we have one uh single

family for 200 amp service is

$140. We're going to be charging 100.

So, there's a saving. So, there is a

savings. Yes. This is all for

residential.

[Music]

um for let's

see a two

family dwelling which we would be doing

inspections for that again it's $100 but

they're charging 180 for the two family

more savings yeah more savings do you

want me to keep going no I just wanted

to um just just you know so the public

could kind of hear because it had me

confused for a little bit right and I

just had to make sure what I was looking

at and understanding when we were

talking about the third party and and

sometimes there was still some some some

barriers for those third parties to even

come in and and do some of that work. So

I I think this kind of makes sense to

keep I mean to actually use

inhouse and do that so there's less tape

to cut through for them to go out and do

an inspection. The other big part of

this is the safety of it. um instead of

having third party come in and inspect

which they get to know people and

there's stories that have been told but

we'll have a better handle of what's

being done. Uh there has been fires that

have started from electrical uh

installations that weren't done

properly. So um it's it's about the

safety also. And so if this is passed it

will be implemented um actually act of

July 1st of 2025. July 1st is when we're

going to be starting the inspections.

Yes. All right. No further. Oh, it's me.

I don't have any further questions, so

I'll start to by immediate right with

Councilman Rodriguez.

Thank you, Chair Jones. Uh, thank you,

Director Montgomery. Thank you both for

joining us. Um, I understand this in

totality. I hope it just translates well

for the residents watching at home, but

I have no questions pertaining to this.

Thank you. Thank you, Councilwoman Ross.

Thank you so much, um, Councilman, uh,

Jones, and good evening to you both.

Thank you for being here this evening to

give us more information. I think, um,

for the residents, I was wondering if

either one of you could give them more

information on why they would, um, need

this service, when they would call the

city for this service, just some

logistics on it so they would understand

um, why why we're passing this or why we

would pass this. So, whenever anybody

runs new electrical wires, they have to

have somebody come in and inspect it.

And that's always was done by a third

party in the past, but uh now we would

like to have the oversight of that. And

uh I think that'll keep the city safer,

the residents safer by us doing our own

inspection of the residential.

Sure. Do you so they know who you are?

That would be great, too. Um, so what's

happening is we're finding a lot of

buildings that have completely been

rewired and they already have their past

sticker from the inspection and it's not

finished yet. So, it's causing a lot of

problems. We're also after an

inspection's done, we're supposed to be

notified from the inspector that it's

done. We don't know who it is. So, when

we get there and we see the sticker, we

don't know if someone's passing out

stickers. We don't know. We also found a

few inspectors that actually aren't

state certified. So, it's just kind of a

mess out there and we really, you know,

with the fire situation, it's a good

idea.

Yeah. No, I agree. I just wanted to make

sure like all the residents knew like it

was, you know, the biggest thing was for

like new installations, for inspections

or you'll also are you inspecting places

that are on a list that you have or this

is just for new ones just um it'll be so

a lot of times uh people won't have an

inspection sticker. Okay. Or you just

bought a new house has no inspection

sticker. the protocol would be you have

to hire an electrician to look at it and

then he has to hire uh a third party. So

that's saving cost too. You could

actually if you're a new homeowner come

down apply for what we have as the

safety inspection inspection. So there's

a bunch of different scenarios where

it's going to be safer and probably save

the people some money. Yep. No, thank

you for the explanation. just so

residents know what this service would

be um when they would need it. I think

that clarification helps just so people

don't think maybe you're also the city

electrician to like come put up lights

or you know what I mean because there

there's a difference. You're inspecting

to make sure it's safe and um if they

want to put up lights or um need

something fixed, that's an electrician

call. And I'd imagine if you hired an

electrician, he's probably going to find

something wrong to fix. Yeah, of course.

It's like taking your car to a

dealership. Absolutely. So, no, thank

you for that clarification. You gave me

a little bit more, too. Um because I

didn't know you could come down to if

you felt like you needed an inspection.

I thought it was just to just if if I

would be um putting in new wiring. That

happens a lot. People get a new house

and be like they're not, you know, they

just want to make sure. So, that that's

good. Speci Yeah. So, thank you. Um they

would be getting the safety inspection.

The safety inspection. Okay. I did not

know that. So that was something you

brought up to me. So thank you for that

enlightenment. Enlightenment. And that's

it for me. Thank you, President Hill.

Thank you. I don't have any questions.

Vice President Green. Thank you very

much. I don't have any questions. Thank

you, Councilwoman Davis. Thank you. You

pretty much clarified everything for me.

This is for new uh electrical

installations or new buildings, new

houses, not your regular inspections

that you go around the city every six

years for multi-units.

Yeah, it doesn't have to do with the

rental registration or rental

inspections. Okay. Now, we may find

something that there was a new

installation

where they never got any inspection. So,

then we would call that out and then

they'd have to go. Okay. Yes. Okay.

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for

being here this evening, Councilwoman

Daniels.

No questions. Thank you. All right. So,

I I have another question. So, we talked

about residential. How does this apply

when it comes to commercial? So,

commercial will still be done by third

party. Okay. So, they still got to foot

the bill. Yeah. All right. You got

something? Well, we may look at that

later to see if we do the commercial,

but first we'd like to implement the

residential. Yeah, I think it would be

beneficial to look at that too. Um to

kind of, you know, uh I don't know, kind

of give them a break as well. I mean,

and again,

without overexerting the codes

department and its officers, you know, I

know that may there may be a limit there

as well. And so my other question too,

um, with some of these properties

that this goes into effect July 1st, so

at that point you're starting on pretty

much on a new sheet of paper or there is

there a backlog that you still need to

address?

Yeah, it'll be anything moving forward.

All right. Any new uh uh applications

for electrical?

All right. Thank you. If there are no

more questions or

comments,

anyone without seeing any, thank you for

showing up tonight. Thank you, city

council. Yep. Yep. And I would ask that

uh res I mean bill six of 2025 be moved

to the next legislative session and I

would ask my colleagues to support this

bill. I would just like to remind um

Councilman Jones, remember we will be

running Oh my goodness. We will we will

be running um an as amended version. It

just adds a fee that was left off. So

that will come before you on the

legislative session. I apologize.

Yes. Our final committee business this

evening lies with the public works

committee. I will defer to our public

works committee chair, Councilman

Rodriguez to lead discussion. Thank you,

Madam President. All right. Um starting

public works committee, we will discuss

a multitude of uh bill and one, two,

three, four resolutions. We will begin

with bill 7 of 2025. Uh Mr. Parker,

would you mind reading bill 7 of 2025

into the record?

Certainly. Bill 7 of

2025, an ordinance amending chapter

3-135 of the codified ordinances of the

city of Harrisburg regarding the removal

and impounding of motor vehicles to

codify and otherwise conform the city

process for the selection and engagement

of Salvore and towing operations.

All right. Thank you for that. And I see

we have director West here today um

representing public works. Uh Director

West, would you like to give a brief

overall bill seven of 2025?

Yes. Okay.

It's more of a lawyer thing. Oh, okay.

But we have also also u

uh DC Young is up. I think he was on the

line there from the police view because

towing covers two things that the public

works needs and the uh police needs.

Deputy Commissioner, are you with us?

I am, sir. How are you this morning? And

thank you for having me. I'm sorry that

uh that I'm doing this uh virtually. I'm

trying to wrap up some training down in

here in Philadelphia before I return

back next week. Oh, in Philly. I thought

you was in Tokyo. You said good morning.

Good day. It's all about the same. Yes,

sir. Um did you uh would you like to

give a brief overhaul of Bill 7 for

everyone?

Well, before we start, I would just say

the city is in litigation. This has been

publicly advertised. Um, and based on a

longstanding practice, the city had

determined long ago that the bidding

process didn't work in the ordinance.

So, there hasn't been a bid under the

ordinance since 2006.

Um, but litigation prompted the city to

to to go ahead and make the proposed

modification is presenting to council. I

think uh uh DC Young and uh director

West can both speak to what we actually

use towing for in the city. Um and this

is to serely identify how we get towing

companies. The practice has been uh

informal for a very long time and this

basically moves the informality into an

ordinance and replaces what exists

today. So with that they if you want to

talk about the actual towing it it

doesn't really change what's happening.

It just it conforms the ordinance to the

practice. Absolutely. Director West

would you like to briefly touch on Bill?

Yes. So the reason why I asked for to

meet about uh Bill 7 was we had two

different entities, two different towing

services, you know, to achieve our task.

And because of that, we wanted a uh

one-stop shop. We wanted a company that

could help us in all aspects of our

areas of our our equipment and our auto

vehicles as well. and and we did um some

searching and we and and we didn't have

do to do too much searching because

there was a company that moved into the

city. two companies actually that moved

into the city that we I went to

meet conversation and asked them to

um uh distribute their information for

us and they were compatible to I know

that I was looking for on the public

works end for the auto and heavy

equipment aspect.

Awesome. And these were uh CNC and

Cameron Street. That's correct. Okay.

And then they can meet all the needs as

far as commercial and your regular

standard class size vehicles. That's

correct. And Don, they kind of struggled

with that because sometimes they

wouldn't even come. Correct. That's

correct. Okay. Okay. And then uh

Solicitor Grover, you said the previous

contract that wasn't 2006, I believe.

The last time there was a the ordinance

called Father the

the ordinance called for a bidding

process, but it wasn't really a bid

because the ordinance set the price.

Okay. Right. So, it doesn't change based

on who the vendor is. Um, and the it was

adopted in 1990, but the last time an

actual three-year bid was issued was

2006. That contract then got extended

several times. The last time expired, I

think it's October 31st of 2012. So, and

since then, it's basically been who the

uh police bureau and the mayor basically

designate, right? Um, and there's

actually been multiple vendors over the

years, not just Dons, although they were

the primary one. There's one that we use

separately, the police use for storage

of cars for long-term that have to be

held for evidence. No, it's I think it's

Riverside. Um, and then we were using

HNS I for several other items, but but

but it had been primarily uh Don's

towing. Okay. Um, but there were limits

to the service that was being provided.

It's been frankly a long-term discussion

uh and there's more changes that need to

come to the ordinance but frankly this

change comes simply because of what was

filed against the city in the court um

which resulted in a temporary injunction

which has now been lifted uh and it

basically conforms the actual ordinance

to the actual practice of the mayor

designating vendors who are eligible and

then if you're eligible then you can

tow. So M the Don's tongue is still on

the list. It's just there's others on

the list now. Absolutely. And then the

ordinance allows up to two companies.