Harrisburg City Council - Work Session 09/02/2025

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Mr. Parker, could you please call the

role?

>> Miss Daniels,

>> here. Miss Davis

>> present.

>> Miss Green.

>> Mr. Jones

>> here.

>> Miss RWS

>> here.

>> Mr. Rodriguez

>> present.

>> And Miss Hill

>> present. Thank you.

We have a lengthy agenda this evening.

So I'd like to get started with the work

of the administration committee. We have

one bill and two resolutions for

discussion this evening. We will begin

with bill nine of 2025. Mr. Parker,

could you please read it into the

record?

>> Bill,

Bill 9 of 2025, an ordinance forgiving

and discharging 2023 city real estate

taxes, including interest, penalties,

and costs, and striking off tax leans

for certain historically taxexempt

properties.

>> Thank you. Um, who from the

administration is present to discuss

Bill Nine of 2025?

Okay.

Uh, good evening. Uh, Bill Nine, we've

done a couple, I think one other one of

these this year. Um, I think in 2022 or

2023, Dolphin County started a

reertification program for all uh um

501c3 properties. Um, so what happened

is basically some of the churches missed

the deadline and so in the interim they

were assessed taxes when they have

historically been taxexempt. Um, so this

is one more that we have. I should um

add that there are four more left out of

the original I think 15 or 16 we had. So

we probably will see another one of

these come down. Um, but this one is

just to forgive the 23 2023 taxes for

uh, Loose Esparansai Glacia, which is

the church that eventually got their

paperwork in. And so now we're just

retroactively,

um, forgiving those 2023 taxes. The

letter attached shows that the other

taxing bodies, uh, Dolphin County and

the school district have done so as

well.

>> Thank you. Thank you for the overview.

Um, I don't have any questions. I

remember us taking action previously on

this. I'll open the floor to my

colleagues who may have some additional

questions. Um, I'll begin with

Councilwoman Daniels. Do you have any

questions?

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Davis. Any

questions?

>> No questions for me.

>> Thank you, Vice President Green. Any

questions?

>> I don't have any questions. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Ross. Any

questions?

>> No, I don't have any questions. Thank

you. Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez.

Any questions?

>> Uh, no questions for me. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones. Any

questions?

>> In uniform, no questions.

>> Okay. Thank you. If there are no further

questions or comments related to Bill 9

of 2025,

I move to add Bill 9 of 2025 to our next

legislative session agenda for a formal

vote. Next, we have resolution 54 of

2025, Mr. Mr. Parker, could you please

read it into the record? Resolution 54

of 2025,

a resolution authorizing the city of

Harrisburg to serve as the project

sponsor for the Pennsylvania Department

of Transportation, Pendot

Transportation Alternatives Set aside,

TASA grant awarded for the Capital Area

Green Belt Association, KAGA, in the

amount of $1,435,400

for the Paxt Tank Parkway Trail

Restoration phase three project and to

enter into all required agreements to

administer the funds.

>> Thank you. Um good evening. Who from the

administration would like to begin

discussion on resolution 54 of 2025?

>> Well, I'm here with for the

administration Sam Sakosski interim

business manager. Julie, you introduce

yourself?

Joel Sadu, city engineer.

Rehart, senior project manager

facilities.

>> And my name is Scott Shepler. I'm the

parkway restoration manager, program

manager for the Capital Area Green Crane

Belt Association.

>> Thank you.

>> No problem. Okay. So, this is a grant

that was already received by Kaga in the

amount of million435.

uh the law bureau and myself and Joel I

think met with uh Doug Hill back in a

couple months ago and uh they don't have

the ability to administer the grant

through the state system. So they're

asking the city of Harrisburg to take

over administration of the grant itself.

Um so I'm just talking about from that

perspective. Uh, so it's a million four

1,ion4 435,000

and we'll take over the the

administration of the grant from here on

in assuming city council approves it.

You want to talk about the grant itself?

>> Sure. U this is the uh this is a

culmination of the parkway restoration.

This this uh particular grant will pave

the twothirds

u

of the parkway that are to the south

towards Pakistan.

Uh another

resolution that we have to discuss later

uh deals with the first third. So the uh

the the uh the money's in place and we

just need to execute at this point to

finish up um I think the first third

probably in 26 2026

and the final two/3s in 2027.

>> I do want to make one comment. There is

no local match to the city for this

particular grant. So I do want to

mention that. So Joel, do you have

anything you want to add?

I guess the only thing I would add is

that there's really no cost to the city

other than my time in administr

>> and just for clarity for the record the

amount the total amount is 1,435,400.

>> That's correct. Thank you. We have it in

our documents. Well, thank you. I don't

have any questions. Very familiar with

the phases and with Kaga um

the restoration project. So I don't have

any questions. I'll open the floor to my

colleagues. I'll begin with uh

Councilwoman Ross. Any questions on

resolution 54 of 2025?

>> Uh good evening to you all. I don't have

any questions. Thank you.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Any

questions?

>> Thank you, Madam President. Thank you

all for joining us this evening. Um, as

Madam President stated, I'm very

familiar as well with the what we're

speaking on tonight, resolution 54, so I

have no questions for anyone. Thank you.

>> Thank you. Councilman Jones, any

questions?

>> No questions.

>> Thank you, Vice President Green. Any

questions?

>> Thank you. I don't have any questions

for you.

>> Okay. Councilwoman Davis, any questions?

>> Good evening. No questions for me.

>> Thank you. Councilwoman Daniels, any

questions?

>> Thank you.

Um, so if there's no further discussion,

no further questions, I move to add

resolution 54 of 2025 to our next

legislative session agenda for a formal

vote.

The final resolution for discussion uh

within the administration committee is

resolution 58 of 2025. Mr. Parker, could

you please read it into the record?

Resolution 58 of 2025,

a resolution authorizing the city of

Harrisburg to petition for and support

the appointment of Midtown Asset

Consulting LLC as receiver over the

residences at Governor Square to enter

into all required agreements with the

receiver and to appropriate and expend

city funds as necessary to stabilize,

restore, and preserve the properties

subject to reimbursement.

>> Thank you. Um, good evening. Who from

the administration would like to address

resolution 58 of 20125?

>> Um, the law bureau will speak on it. We

do happen to have the appointed receiver

here. Um, I'll just give a brief

overview. As we stated last week in the

legislative session, um, the law bureau

was in court on Friday um, for an oral

argument. We presented a proposed

stipulation uh council for the current

owner pro proposed the uh one as well.

Um today we got hot off the presses the

actual court order. Um I would mention

that um Mr. Heinley was appointed as

receiver. Well, Midtown Asset Consulting

LLC. Um so he can he has he can answer

any questions. I did uh just for your

information, if anyone's interested,

bring you all copies of the fresh court

order. Um we are still vetting it to see

what portions of the order are what we

suggested as opposed to what um opposing

council suggested. So we will keep you

appointed on that. I did look to see

though we city of Harrisburg is will be

fully reimbursed for any monies they

spend which I know is important to

everybody. So that is the overview of

it. Uh Mr. He is here. So if you have

any further questions about the duties

of the receiver or what he intends to

do, you could direct those directly to

him.

>> Thank you. Good evening. If you don't

mind taking a few minutes to introduce

yourself.

>> Sure.

>> My name is Justin Heinley. I'm the sole

owner of Midtown Asset Consulting. Uh

some of you may know me uh by my

affiliate company, Midtown Property

Management. Uh we've been in business

since 2019. I have my real estate

broker's license in Pennsylvania. Uh

lived in the city for 15 years and very

active in the community. Um

Neil approached me uh for this

opportunity um about six to eight months

ago. Um you know, and it was was a

challenging opportunity uh but we're

looking forward to it. You know, our

mission and our affiliated business is

to manage properties with integrity and

respect for our tenants, our owners, and

our community. And this aligns with who

we are uh as a company and as members of

our community. Uh we have a number of

individuals uh that work uh for our

affiliated business that will be

supporting us in this endeavor uh that

are city residents as well. So it is

very important to us and uh we are

humbled and honored to have been

selected for this position.

>> Thank you. Um so basically just if you

wouldn't mind sharing some of your

intentions with this property.

Sure. Um, you know, the global intention

uh with the property is to ensure that

we restore all 222 units uh to a code

compliant condition. Uh this is going to

be no small feat. Some of the properties

uh are beyond condemned and may require

demolition and reconstruction. Um we

have proposed a three-phase plan to get

us there. Uh the first phase uh is going

to be the first six months. That's going

to be um concerted efforts on life

safety and ensuring that we secure the

property, that we access every unit and

put together an entire budget and uh

plan for restoration. Uh that plan will

likely go before the judge and as well

as um working with the city uh for

approval.

After we get through with phase one,

then we'll actually start the

implementation of that approved plan. Uh

the first two years of that plan is just

to get us financially stable. Uh that's

to uh restore what we can uh with the

money that we have to be able to get the

property to a financially neutral

position and then move us into the third

plan uh third phase of the plan which

will ultimately get us into capital

improvements uh where we'll seek out uh

large grants and other opportunities for

funding to be able to continue the

restoration. Uh but first and foremost

uh you know our job here is to make sure

that the residents are there are safe.

They're provided clean quality housing

to the best of our ability and maintain

that property the way that it should

have been from day one.

>> Thank you. And just one more question.

The length of the plan you mentioned the

first two years. Is this a fiveyear plan

or or what's your

guesstimation on the the prepared

phases?

Um, you know, we are prepared for this

to be a 10-year plan.

>> Okay.

>> Um,

we will know after the first six months,

uh, what this is going to look like. Um

we're confident that after the second

phase we'll get financially neutral and

at that point you know decisions will

have to be made as to whether you know

it's we maybe at that point we have an

opportunity for sale um to be able to

provide it to a qualified partner who'

be able to take the property from there

or we do it ourselves and continue on to

make sure that we restore the property

entirely before ultimately bringing it

up for a sale.

>> Okay. Thank you. I I have more

questions, but I want to make sure that

my colleagues have ample time to ask

questions as well. I'd like to begin

with our building and housing committee

chair, Councilwoman Davis. Do you have

any questions regarding resolution 58?

>> Thank you, President Hill. Good evening,

Mr. Heimley and everyone. Just one

question as I read through the project,

the phases and everything.

Is the operating revenue the rents that

the tenants are paying and who will be

collecting the rents as you're working

on the property?

>> So, HUD currently has uh not allowed the

current property management company to

be released. Uh therefore, uh Win

Residential is the qualified HUD

property manager that is currently has

staff on the ground that will be doing

collection of the rent and the initial

maintenance per their contract. uh we

will be evaluating that contract and

their contributions based upon the

amount of money that they charge but I

can tell you at the moment that there is

minimal collections. Um

>> the money that is coming in will be

coming from rent collection but yes

>> okay uh now you mentioned was that wing

residential

>> wind w

>> wind residential is collecting the rents

currently.

>> Yes. Okay. Do we know how much money is

coming into that property for the rent

now? The or anything?

>> Yes. The current rent roll is uh $46,382

of which of that uh only about 39,000

was collected.

Currently there's a balance of 838,000

in delinquency.

>> And the 46,82

is for the year.

>> That is a monthly billing to it.

monthly.

>> Okay. So, wind residential is collecting

this money currently. Um,

is there any uh is there anyone else

that's kind of a second party to the

bank role or

>> as a part of the order? Uh, we have been

given full access and rights to all

accounting including bank accounts as

well as property management software. We

are going to do a full reconciliation

and we are going to monitor every

financial transaction that the property

management company takes.

>> Okay. Thank you very much. That's it for

me for right now.

>> I just wanted to add to um councilwoman

that if you look through the order, the

duties and responsibilities are very

specific and clear of what the receiver

can and can't do. So, it's laid out all

of that is in the signed order that we

gave you.

>> Okay. I think I'll need a comment.

>> I I need Yeah, you need one more. I'll

make sure you have it.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Daniels. Any

questions?

So as the receiver we have rights to

enter into any contractual obligations.

Uh so at the moment uh the contract for

the property management is intact and as

a part of that there are two staff

members there on site uh that are part

of that contract. One in an office

manager capacity and one in a uh

building maintenance capacity. Um,

our goal is after the first six months

to evaluate that contract to understand

their contributions and other

alternatives that we can employ to be

able to reduce costs and be as efficient

as possible with the minimal amount of

income that we have.

They are employees of Wind Residential

and their contribution to Governor

Square is back build through u the rent

that's collected.

responsible.

>> Yeah. So, I had mentioned I have an

affiliate business uh Midtown Property

Management. Uh we also have a financial

consultant uh that we are likely going

to bring on uh to be able to um

administer these roles. Um In full

transparency, I mean, the the goal would

be, you know, to either work with the

property management company that we have

or find an alternative where, you know,

we potentially could do it ourselves,

become unqualified to be able to

streamline all of the costs and

operations, uh, under the receiver. Uh

that way um you know the goal would be

to to hire people that are Parisburg

city residents uh that would be

full-time employees there that would

focus solely on Governor Square and the

the staff that's there right now is

actually split between the town homes at

Governor's Square and Governor's Square

and a significant portion if not all of

their time is spent on the town homes.

uh and we will make sure that we

adjudicate that appropriately as to the

amount of time that they're spending

with us and the amount of payment that

we're making.

>> You're welcome. Thank you, Vice

President Green. Any questions?

>> Thank you, President Bowers. Um just

kind of looking over this, I have a

couple of questions. I guess I'll just

start with um just the monetary amount.

Uh the city put forth $250,000 out of

the

revenue recovery funds that started off

as ARP funds. Um and then the receiver

will get a flat fee of $12,000 per month

for phase one and then 10,000 per month

for phase 2 and then 8,000 per month for

phase three outside of um simultaneous

accounting fees. Correct.

>> Correct.

Um, as far as reimburseable expenses,

that's like to actually fix actually fix

the property up if I'm correct. All

right. Um, ballpark, what are we looking

at? Because that that can be way more

than the $250,000.

Um, and so I mean, we're talking about

it can go into the millions to be honest

for for the condition the propertyy's

in. So, um, have you created an estimate

on what you think it would cost to

completely renovate the properties and

get them back to where they need? Uh

because obviously then we have to look

at

um the offset of selling the property,

right? If it will be sold, if we spend

more to fix it than it it costs to sell

it, then the city kind of and the

residents end up uh footing that bill.

So just trying to come up with some

figures here.

>> Absolutely. Yes. Um I believe that phase

one is going to give us concrete answers

to that. Um, back in the early 2020s, a

uh financial analysis was done on the

property uh that concluded somewhere in

the upper teens in millions is going to

be required for full restoration of the

entire facility. Uh the $250,000 was

merely a starting point to ensure that

we had enough seed money for

administrative and life safety. Uh and

then obviously the money that's coming

in from rent collections and actually

going after and making sure that we are

able to receive the money that we're

entitled to uh from residents is going

to also pay for uh some of the

activities that are going on. Uh we've

already started having uh meetings with

members of the community uh to get us

engaged with grant funding and other

opportunities to be able to uh do this.

This is going to be a

a very long very arduous task uh that I

am confident that we will be successful.

I know the city will get repaid. I am

very confident the city residents are

going to be served in this

uh evolution, but we just need time.

Time is going to be what we're going to

need to get through this.

>> Okay. Um I think that's the the main

question. I had is kind of just the

numbers. Um because I just don't want us

to to sign on for something. I mean,

need it needs to be done. Um I think we

all agree that this is something that

needs to be done, but we also have to

make for sure that we're being cognizant

of the overall cost that it will come to

um when when it comes to the end, making

sure the residents don't end up on the

hook. Subsidizing a property that ends

up being sold becomes market rate and

they get no benefit out of it other than

having nice housing in the city for

someone to make money off of. So that's

kind of my main concern here as we move

forward. Um will there be reports given

to council throughout this uh this

project uh because sometimes uh reports

get given to the administration doesn't

get you know passed on in the day-to-day

activity. So just want to make sure that

council has the the same level of

communication so that we know what's

going on. Um and it's not just uh hey we

need another million dollars because

this needs to be fixed and if we don't

get it by tomorrow the project ends,

right? We we get that uh unfortunately

more than we'd like to it should never

happen but we get it right. Um so is

there a way that we can get reports as

council um whether it's via email or

coming to meetings so that the residents

know what's going on because residents

have been very invested.

>> Yes. Yeah. I absolutely um you know I

look to be as transparent as possible

through this process uh meeting with

both the administration and city council

as well as meeting with the city

residents that live there. um having

public meetings, having them come attend

so they can be engaged in this process

as well. So, uh I'd like this to be

completely transparent as possible. Um I

I would just offer that the

reimbursement for uh Midtown Asset

Consulting is also able to be um taken

from the rent collections. So, it's not

just the city that's going to be on the

hook, as well as the opportunity of

being able to provide those funds back

to the city through the rent collections

uh as well. We can't make any

guarantees. Uh we need that money to be

there. Of course, um there's a little

bit of money in their trust account at

the moment that can start us, but uh you

know, we completely understand that the

money that we take to do this project is

the city's money is the city residents

money and needs to be used diligently.

>> Thank you. Um and just last but not

least, consider this a formal invitation

uh to come to any of our legislative

sessions to give us an update. You don't

need to schedule ahead. You can come

during the public comments period if you

would like to schedule ahead. We'd um

always appreciate that we can put you on

the agenda, but don't feel like, oh,

well, I didn't talk to anybody, so I

can't come. Um, but we always would love

a update, so feel free to come any

legislative session. Thank you.

>> If I would, just one last thing, you

know, on the amounts. Um, Harmony Tower

just recently went into receiverhip. Uh,

we base the fees off of that uh example.

Um, however, Harmony Tower is almost

fully occupied, is not uh, you know,

crimeridden or or has substantial issues

with it. So, we fully understand and

expect that we are going to spend far

more time than what we're going to get

compensated for, but we believe that

that's part of our mission and that's

why we're here.

>> Thank you,

Councilwoman RS. Any questions?

>> Thank you, President Bar. Um, sometimes

in these meetings we go a little quick

and I I missed the name. So, can you

give me the name again and spell it for

me?

>> Justin

Hinley. H E I N L Y.

>> Thank you. Um, well, thank you for being

here tonight. Um, and of course being

um, willing to take on this task. Um,

most some of my questions were already

answered, especially about the money

towards admin and what those costs were

and had that looked even though we had

already given $250,000, although that

probably won't cover anything but a box

of nails or something for the amount of

work that has to be done there. Um, and

everything you said when you gave your

introduction, um, I thought it was very

caring, very understanding. You did

sound like you had a mission for this

project. Um, and you touched on a little

bit with the residents when u, Vice

President Green had asked a few

questions, but I think out of all this,

that's my biggest concern is um, how are

the residents going to be communicated

with? Um, how are they going to feel

safe? Um, just how are they going to be

a part of this process more so than you

giving me updates? I want to make sure

they're being updated and being treated

as humans through this process. So, I

just wanted to ask what are well, two

questions. What are some other projects

that you all have been receiverhip on?

You just mentioned Harmony Towers a

little bit. And two, how are you going

to make sure that the residents um at

Governor Square are still being treated

as humans and are still getting um you

know the work done in in the building

but still feeling like they are part of

it.

>> Sure. Um to be clear, we are not the

receiver at Harmony Tower. uh we just

based the um some of the compensation as

well as other things just to understand

the market value of a receiver position.

Um however, I think the receiver

position at its core is um strong

ownership, strong leadership and

property management uh which I think our

affiliated company Midtown Property

Management has shown time and time again

throughout the city uh that we're

committed to restoring properties and

doing it humanely uh with the residents

in mind. Um, you know, I was a part of

uh the restoration of the Broad Street

Market after the fire and the economic

downturn that we had. And, you know,

through the leadership of of Eric

Heggerty and helping him, uh, you know,

transparency was key, right? Having

formal meetings, but also informal

meetings that residents can come and be

able to provide us with their

perspectives, provide us with their

concerns, and then genuinely act on

those. I think it's one thing to listen,

it's another thing to act and be

completely transparent with them. Uh we

do plan on holding public meetings with

them. Um and then I think the other

thing is making sure right now all of

their work orders go on deaf ears. I

have confirmed that. And so making sure

that they understand that we are here

for them, that we are able to talk to

them and then anytime we have updates

that we do that with a timely uh

communication to all of our residents.

Um and then just being available, right?

Um You know, I do intend on hopefully

being able to have some office hours

once we get the Governor Square office

open again, as it should be, where

residents can come in and be able to

communicate with us in a genuine manner.

>> Okay. Thank you. I I just wanted to know

how that was going to be communicated

with them.

>> Uh we could add that uh a representative

for the residents of Governor Square has

participated in some of the talks and

discussions leading up to the

appointment of the receivers. So,

>> Okay. All right. Thank you. and I

definitely look forward to you coming

back to communicate with us and keep us

updated. So, I feel like then we're

we're all in the loop and then it's not

so much thrown at us at the last minute.

Um, like Vice President Green said where

we have to make such a quick decision,

but we don't even know what's exactly

happening. So,

>> my hope is in six months I can come back

with some positive news.

>> Yes, even if it's in three months, we're

here. Thank you. That was it for me.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez. Any

questions? Thank you, Madam President.

Um, thank you, Mr. Highley, for joining

us this evening. Um, when we talk about

Governor Square, I'm pretty sure you're

aware of the undertaking that you're

about to take part in. Um, just a few

years ago, members of council, myself,

we were up there at a town hall at Fair

Housing, and to see the condition that

some of our families and residents are

in, I mean, to say subpar, that's an

understatement. Um, I've taken many

trips up there as well as many of my

colleagues up here and everything from

mental health, you know, um,

coaching to children and youth

assistance, anything we could do. I know

I've been up there with the county

several times and it's still just a sad

position to hear that it's taken so long

for there to be an interjection. And I

understand due to legal a lot of

legalities is really not too much we

were able to do. But I just wanted to

make you aware that even to this day

some of those properties are beyond you

know repairable as you mentioned some

properties may have to be demoed but our

families are still living in those

currently. Um there's children in those

homes and some of those homes don't even

have the complete bricks on the outside

where when it gets a bit cold outside

>> you know. Um there were some fires where

you know those electric heaters just

couldn't have just due. Uh so I just

want you to be aware it's much more than

an organization or a company uh taking

this big process or these hurdles and

jumping through it. As a receiver,

there's a lot of families involved and

people that depend on that whether they

can pay their rent or not. It's, you

know, I hate to say it this way, you're

kind of the savior at this point. Um

it's something that council has been

fighting for for a while. The mayor's

office has been fighting for a while,

but our hands have been tied for quite

some time. Um, I do have a few

questions. Uh, please bear with me. Um,

you have mentioned that Neil approached

you. U, in your opinion, why do you feel

you were approached and it wasn't an

open process for potentially other

receivers to take the property?

>> Um, I believe it was a very open process

in that Neil had made many, many phone

calls prior to me. Um

>> well not phone calls that would still be

an individual reaching out

>> when I mean like a process something

that was you know kind of put out

through media or different channels

where other entities had the opportunity

to get the um the building or become the

receiver of the property. You know, I

think when and I can't speak for the

government process on how to get here

through a receiverhip, but what I can

say is that um

qualif qualifications, the credentials,

and the care that they were looking for

for somebody in this position.

I believe there were not many people

that fit that, but that also wanted to

do it. Um, you know, there were some

local leaders, some local business

owners that were approached. Um, all of

which who, uh, respectfully turned it

down based upon the amount of work. Um,

they had all talked to me uh, after I

said yes and said, you know, are you

sure you want to do this? This is a big

lift, right? Um, you know, and I think

that, you know, the city has been my

home. It's been my passion. It's been my

love and and that's what's driving me to

do this. um you know if an open process

would have brought someone better to the

table.

>> I don't mean as far as better but we've

mentioned transparity a few times. You

yourself said strong ownership, strong

leadership and what you do. I just

believe the process of transparency is a

part of what we do. Um not just like hey

I think this would be a good go we

should go this way. Even even if no one

was able to step up to it and get it I

believe in the process just to have the

process I think would say a lot and and

you know speak volumes. Um, also what

are your plans for replacement of

tenants as you work on the buildings?

Um, will you be switching them around to

finished properties or finished um

because of course there's homes and then

you also have apartments. Um, would you

like to speak a little bit on that

process as far as shifting them around a

bit?

>> Yeah. Uh, preservation of the tenants

that we have there is is paramount,

right? That's um it's actually a HUD

requirement, but it's also uh the right

thing to do. So, uh, the very first

thing that I'll do once I get access to

the keys is to visit every property that

we know is occupied by a lease holding

tenant and talk to them, figure out

their conditions, determine if what they

have is salvageable, and if it's not,

then their action is going to be figure

out where I can put them in Governor

Square that is going to be a quality

housing for them. So, each one of those

residents up there, if they're listening

tonight, know that they are going to

have a home.

>> Will there maintain? Will there be grace

periods? H how does that look? Just for

the people watching, I don't know. But h

how does that look? Because for some

families that that could be a reason to

be pushed out, right? And maybe

gentrification to to the area. We want

to definitely retain the families that

are in the area and even uplift them,

get them through different programs and

perhaps one day home ownership. But uh

what does that look like for you? Um you

mentioned preserving the current tenants

that are there, but like is it is it in

actuality? Is it something that you

really can do?

>> Yeah. So, there are HUD requirements for

the limits that you can place on rents.

So, the goal would be is to find

comparable units uh that those tenants

then could move into that um are able to

um continue about their lives in the

same manner as they did previously um

for the same rent value. I I don't think

that, you know, we're in an opportunity

to take somebody from 750 and move them

to 850 just because we can. that $100 is

not going to mean much to the

receivers's position as it does to the

tenants position. Absolutely.

>> Right. And we are going to be respectful

and understand that in that, you know,

we want to be able to keep that resident

there.

>> Now, if they have a family, would you

try to accommodate the same amount of

rooms, etc.? Absolutely.

>> Um because those accommodations is is

huge and that could be a reason why a

family would leave if they get a smaller

property. Um, and are you speaking of

current market value or like if they

signed at least 10 years ago, would you

stay within the parameters of that?

>> Um,

>> I don't I don't want to commit to say

absolutely. Um, but I would say that we

do not have a compelling reason to lose

any tenants right now. Uh, our goal

should be is to keep as many rent paying

tenants there as we can. Um, and you

know, barring maybe an administrative

issue or something with the initial

lease signing, I don't see any reason

why we would not keep them at the exact

same rate as they are um, well within

the guidelines.

>> Then once the properties are pretty much

finished up, would they have the ability

to move back or would those properties

just go up and they would stay and

maintain where they are?

>> You know, I think I think our goal is to

build a relationship with the tenants,

right? Um and during those

consultations, um you know, our property

management software allows us to take

notes on the desires of each one of the

tenants. Um you know, and we'll make

sure that we take that into account. Um

I think that as we do this, there are

probably going to be opportunities for

us to have to move entire buildings uh

from one location to another, the

tenants that are in those buildings uh

and rehabilitate. I don't think that

there's any reason why we would not

offer those tenants uh first opportunity

to come back to those locations. Um so I

think there's going to be a very uh

conscious effort to maintain their

quality of life.

>> Okay. And then I guess this would be a

legal um question. Uh under other

matters on line 34 uh the city shall be

entitled to repay but also on the same

um line it also says under no

circumstances shall the receiver be

responsible for the payment of such

amounts. So who would be responsible to

make sure the city's covered in that?

To my understanding, the receiver, like

I said, has been put in place, the

owners still exist. And if you go down

further, it actually says even if we

have to be repaid through the sale,

>> but we don't expect the receiver to take

on obligations and debts that are not

his.

>> So that's why it says in there that the

receiver is not the person to pay us

back. We would be paid back through

rents or whatever, like he said, if

that's possible. And if nothing else, up

in and through the time that a uh

responsible HUD owner uh buyer is found,

then we would be paid through the sale

if that's, you know, the last resort.

>> So, the receiver wouldn't really be uh

legally binded. They'll just be the

receiver of the property until it gets

up and running or a new owner pretty

much comes abroad.

>> Correct. Or whatever happens down the

pike. Right. We don't They're stepping

in to save the property so they don't

take on the debts that you know.

>> Yep.

>> Right.

>> I understand completely. It's just the

legal jargon a lot of residents are not

up to or privy to. So trying to explain

it to them I think much be much better

from your office as they watch on

YouTube right now.

>> I apologize if I'm not saying it as but

correct. Yes.

>> I had a lot of conversations with me on

this man. Okay. You know, I think the

intention here was to ensure that the

receiver is not able to take actions

unilaterally that would not allow the

city to be repaid. Okay. Uh the

repayment of that could be a number of

things where maybe we have a grant,

right? And the first part of that grant

was to pay back the 250 and then be able

to then infuse the rest of that into

capital improvements. The goal is for me

is to use that 250 as almost like a line

of credit.

>> We will use a little bit of it, we'll

give it back. Maybe use a little bit

more, give it back. The goal is is to

make sure that the city is maintained

whole at all times.

>> Yeah. No, I completely understand. Um

just my dual responsibility to make sure

I get these questions asked. So, thank

you for your time this evening and thank

you for your answers. No further

questions.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones. Any

questions?

>> Absolutely. Um,

so

this like my colleagues, this is a first

I want to say you're courageous

for taking on this project. Um, we we

can expect this to cost a whole lot of

money to fix this property, but where

I'm concerned, and I think some of my

colleagues have expressed it, but and

I've also said to you, how is the city

going to get its money back? There is no

clearcut. Even in the um resolution it

says subject to repayment. And if we're

looking at the numbers, I think you just

said 46,000 a month. Is that correct?

And you've only collected 36. Um this is

going to be a problem and this this

price is going to escalate. I'm just

concerned about this project. I mean, we

definitely know that we need it done.

I've hosted cleanups, cut grass, and

tried to board up this place myself just

because of the crime and things that

were going on in that neighborhood. But

financially, this is a huge task. And I

think we ran into that with some of the

sales people that wanted to buy it

first. They weren't HUD HUD regulated to

to to be able to even get in the

position. But the amount of money that

it's going to take to renovate this

place where you say um one of the

problems was you have to relocate some

of the residents that are there. Um are

you taking any new residents? I'm sure

you're not, right?

If we have the opportunity to have units

that uh are livable that we can bring a

tenant into, absolutely we will.

>> Yeah. So maybe this question be for

legal because um one of the biggest

issues with the owner that's just still

in place um that he he owed the city up

upwards of a million dollars or more and

we couldn't get it. So who's going to be

responsible to give the city their money

back? I mean of course we want to take

care of our residents, but I think this

is going to be a hit. this price is

going to keep climbing and we need to

keep a very close eye on it as as

council and as administration as well.

We need to take a real close look at

this and again I think you're courageous

for stepping in. I think some of those

other people were kind of wise to say

no. Um so can you any any of you give

any insight on how the city will receive

um any of these funds in reimbursement?

>> I mean I I honestly can. I think, you

know, this has been carved out around a

bankruptcy that was filed by the owners.

Um, this is a plan that was the best we

can work out for the residents at this

time. Being very mindful that the city,

you know, cannot just subsidize certain

residents over the others. But to see

the conditions that the people are

living in at the time, you know, this is

what we can come up with at the time

that is a best working result that as he

said if we can try to put in this

minimum that helps build them to the

next step. We don't expect to have to

pay for all of it. You know, the

receiver is very experienced

um in property management. So, we're

hoping that some of the things they'll

do will streamline costs. Of course,

things will have to be demolished,

rebuilt, people have to be replaced.

There are regulations in place. This we

thought is what we could put up right

now to help get this all started.

>> So, that's what I can speak to at the

time for that answer in my pay grade.

>> My question,

>> but um I think again and I and I hope my

counsel is u my colleagues are listening

to this because um this is a serious

matter. Um, we know this is like object

poverty up there right now. It's bad and

we can't foot the bill. Um, we don't

want to see our residents in the

streets, but we got to get ourselves out

of some things too, you know. Um, I I

really wish council was involved in this

um to help, you know, foster some ideas

or, you know, just work together

collectively to see what other issue I

mean other answers we can come up with.

>> Well, I don't think that this is the

first step. So I don't think it should

bar council from being in involved going

further if you have you know ways to

have more ideas things you know it's a

collaboration so because this is put in

place doesn't stop you at all from

continuing to collaborate and come up

with ways to get it done.

>> Yeah. Um yeah go ahead.

>> Yes sir. If I may. Um, you know, there

are going to be opportunities for us to

be able to get grant funding and for us

to be able to have opportunities to

influx cash into this. Um, not from the

city. Uh, and that's really going to be

our goal is the city needs to contribute

some because it's our asset. Uh, but the

goal really is to be able to get county

and state funding to be able to support

us as well as use the cash flow that

we're generating to be able to um, you

know, further prop ourselves up. I

understand it's going to be a difficult

uh process. Um but you know, right now

the $8 million uh grant that the city

had opened up, right? Had timing been a

little bit different potentially could

have been an opportunity for us to be

able to infuse cash into it. There will

be other opportunities like that uh that

we are going to be mindful of and we're

already

meeting with other um local community

members to be able to pair up with them

to be able to apply for these grants to

make sure that we are the most

competitive as we can be to bring those

dollars to this community. And I think

the goal really uh when we do that is if

we're able to bring in a million dollar

grant, the thought is is that 250 of

that should go to repayment of the city

and 750 would then go to the continued

improvement. And the the goal really is

that the receiver as well as any um

ongoing expenses will be paid for by the

rent collection and then the capital

improvements be made through grant

funding that we'll go after.

>> Yeah. Um, thank you for similar I mean

partially answering like how will the

city receive some of its um funding

back, but I'm still there still a

concern because when you got we're

looking at what 47's doing with all

these cuts and so we can't depend on

these grants. We got to Yeah, I'm just I

just wanted to express my concerns man.

Um and um hopefully we can continue. So,

one of the other questions I asked, you

said 6 months. So, as you begin doing

work there and um maintaining the

property, again, just be clear, we're

not questioning, at least I'm not

questioning your ability to do this work

or your or your job or your company to

to be able to sustain these properties.

It's not my concern. Um my concern again

is this cost in within six months. How

soon will you see that this is going to

balloon and we're we're going to be in

trouble?

>> Um, you know, I'm a glass half full kind

of guy. Um, I'm going to go into it with

with, you know, how are we going to find

a solution, right? Um, growing up, I was

always told there's a there's always a

solution and we just have to find it.

You may not like the solution, uh, but

we're going to get to it and that

solution is to care for our residents.

So, we are going to work our way through

this one step at a time. Uh I don't want

to make any promises that I can't keep.

Uh but I know that after six months I

will have a very solid plan with a good

understanding as to what we have and

where we're going to be going. And I

think at that point um I think to all of

your credit, you know, we should have an

open dialogue at that point to say the

receivers bringing forward a plan. We

need to get the entire community. We

need to get the entire city, you know,

state representatives, everyone

involved, right? Uh this is all of our

citizens and we welcome any support from

you all that we'll be able to get as

well.

>> Okay. Um

yeah. Uh I'm just going to keep a close

eye on this. So you're saying so we have

to wait six months to figure out what we

get to see. This is

a roll of the dice and and I'll leave it

there. Um no further questions.

>> Thank you. Councilwoman Ross.

Yes, I did have some additional

questions. Um,

I'm trying to think of just moneywise.

Um,

and also we we just No fault to anybody.

We just got this today, so I didn't get

to go through everything to see if my

questions answered, but and it's no

fault to anybody. I'm just saying if I

answer something that's evaluating it,

it came in at about 300 p.m. So, so

sorry if I solicitor hasn't even had a

chance to really decide. Like I said,

there were two proposed orders. We

haven't been able to parse through yet

to see what pieces were added in or not.

>> Okay. Thank you. Uh I just want to make

sure I'm clear on something then ask a

question. So with FA each phase you get

paid a certain amount for like there's

an admin fee. Um in phase one I think

you is it is it or the company is it

12,000 a month? Right. So it comes about

I guess 72,000 after 6 months. that if

in six months or we don't like the plan

or things aren't going the way they're

supposed to, are we able to come out of

the contract or have we signed like a

five-year contract? I just wanted to

know what the responsibilities were just

in case things don't go as planned and

residents aren't getting what they

needed, you know, etc., etc.

>> I work at the pleasure of the court and

the community. So, you know, if if after

six months you're unpleased with my

actions or my plan, um I welcome the

feedback first, hopefully that we can be

able to come to terms and if we cannot,

then I will understand and uh

do as you say.

>> Okay. Okay. I'm going hold you to that.

Um

>> I've always told every one of my clients

that I'm here to earn their business

every day,

>> right? Uh, none of my contracts ever

come with termination clauses or costs

associated with it. I'm here to make

sure that my actions and my results

speak for themselves.

>> Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um,

and my other question was, and this may

be thinking far ahead, but I have to in

the sense of these are subsidized

housing, uh, apartments and town houses

for our residents who really need them.

It's a good what, 220 of them, I

believe. What ramifications? I don't

know if the legal will have this answer

or what's in place to make sure that and

I think we touched on a little bit once

they're updated and everything's looking

good. I mean, they're looking like, you

know, $10 million that it's not market

value then and these aren't taken to not

be subsidized anymore. Is there anything

in place for that?

>> There. Sorry, you guys are legal.

>> Yeah. Well, uh, the HUD, the deeds, the

HUD, it's it's in the deeds that you

can't, um, that it's affordable housing.

That's what part of the HUD is. So, it's

in the deeds of the properties.

>> Okay. I just wanted it to be said

because that's a question for a lot of

people. A lot of people are very nervous

that it's going to be taken right from

under them and once it gets all spruced

up and nice like or there's this this

background plan for it to be spruced up

this way so it can ultimately be sold

and no longer be subsidized housing and

>> I think HUD would have to remove there.

>> I I thought so too. I thought there was

something on there that but I wanted to

make sure it was said. I know this is

not re a recorded meeting because it's

not our legislative session but for the

people who are listening just to know

that that it can't just so easily be

unsubsidized and correct taken to market

value.

>> Okay.

>> If I may just

>> there's there is a sunset clause on it.

Uh I believe it's about 10 years uh from

now. I believe that that is one of the

opportunities that we might be able to

bring some parties to the table uh to

extend that uh to be able to then uh

find some opportunities for funing. So I

think we're going to use every

opportunity we can.

>> Did you mean a sunset clause on the

receiverhip?

>> No, the sunset clause on it being

>> the market of value or not.

>> Oh, so what you're saying in 10 years it

can go up to market value.

>> Correct. That's the way the deed is

structured currently. Uh but I think as

we proceed through this the goal is

going to be is uh to use that as an

opportunity to extend it uh to give

favor with HUD uh to then potentially be

able to get some terms for additional

financing.

>> Yes. Because I know you said the project

will take about 10 years. So

>> there goes where my questions at again.

You see what I mean? Like that's what

I'm that's where I'm nervous.

>> And I'll let legal counsel me later on

this. But I believe the way that it

works is that if um there's no debt

service being paid right now because

there's no ability for the debt service

to be paid. So that sunset clause I

believe continues to push until you're

able to make debt service coverage. I

believe that's the way it works.

So um

what you're saying is if since there it

can't be repaid right now because of all

the things that are happening do years

get tacked on or they don't it doesn't

the years don't keep going because

nothing's there's no debt that they can

be paid. Yeah, we can

>> I could be saying it wrong, but

>> we could take that offline, but my

understand

>> Okay, I don't get it. And I if anybody

could just give us clear because that

was, you know, here and there for me,

but that's the concern right there.

>> I would say we would look into the the

actual language of the sunset clause

before we give out wrong information.

>> Yes, please. I was just about to say

that. So, um, cuz I'm not

I'm still thinking in my head what, um,

that it would be an issue after 10

years. So, yes, if we can get some

information, that would be lovely. Thank

you. Thank you for trying to answer that

question the best you could, but that is

the that is one of the main concerns.

So, thank you.

>> You could put on the record that I have

no intention of this going market rate.

>> Thank you. I appreciate that. That's it

from me.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez.

>> Thank you, Madam President. Um, just

real quick, uh, Mr. Highly you had

briefly mentioned um your you

participated in the BSM restoration the

broad street market. Uh what was your

role in in that ordeal?

>> Uh we were the prop uh project man

property management company uh and we

work closely with the board uh in

helping them with um both uh financial

and uh facility management

>> for the brick building or the tent or

both

>> uh for both for the for the current

operations. So where do you feel the

challenges are as far as actually

getting that project completed?

>> You understand? Because that's another

huge overtaking and if you're saying you

played a big role in the administrative

part of that that's not up. It doesn't

really sit well on the belief that

Governor Square is going to go any

different.

>> Yeah. Um I don't believe that the Broad

Street Market Alliance uh has

jurisdiction over uh that project. I

think that lies in other um

other members. Um you know, we did what

we could with the financial obligations

that we had and you know, the securing

of grant funding and we brought the uh

stone building and the tent up to a

functional status with um you know,

positive proceeds currently with uh

capital improvement funds in the bank.

uh such that the market is in a very

strong position right now for whenever

the brick building does get completed.

Uh when that building gets completed is

unfortunately out of our hands.

>> I appreciate the answer. Thank you.

>> Thank you. Are there any other

questions,

>> comments? President Bowers, just one

more question. Mr. Hley, did you I want

to make sure I understood this. Did you

mention that this is going to take 10

years to restore to 100% occupancy?

>> That's our current projections.

>> 10 years. Okay.

Okay.

>> Thank you. Um given the conversation

this evening and Councilwoman Daniels,

>> I have another question.

>> No, you're fine. Go ahead.

Uh you would have to ask solicitor

Grover. He spearheaded uh the the search

for a receiver um like using people that

he knew that were in the area as well as

you know a wider search. So I would have

to defer to him. You can ask him at the

next session.

>> Thank you, Councilwoman Daniels. Um, as

I was saying, oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Oh, there was no response.

>> I just said that I would defer to uh

your question is a personal one for

solicitor Grover, so I would like to

allow him to answer.

>> I don't know if it's frozen again. Did

you Did you Okay, thank you. It's It's

okay. Um, given the conversation and the

questions that are still lingering, um,

and then the receipt of the court order

this evening, I'd like council members

to have an opportunity to review the

court order. I'd like the law bureau to

have an opportunity to digest it. Um,

and, uh, for solicitor Grover to respond

to Councilwoman Daniels. So given that I

would like the resolution to remain in

committee at this time um

and then we'll move forward once

questions have been answered and um

council members have time to review the

court order.

>> I would just like to state um President

Hill that the resolution before you was

really just for us to do what you the

order is the culmination of what the

resolution was about. So, I mean, I

understand there's additional questions,

but it was just for us to be able to

petition for a receiver, which we now

have successfully done.

>> Okay.

Well, um,

if there are no additional questions, I

will add resolution 58 of 2025 to our

next legislative session agenda. I will

suspend the rules for additional

discussion prior to our vote. If you

wouldn't mind being here next Tuesday,

we will begin at 6 pm in the event that

council members have additional

questions for you and your new role. And

>> Madame President,

>> yes.

>> Would that excuse me if I sound a bit

ignorant to this? Mhm.

>> Wouldn't that be pretty much taking the

action before council even makes the

vote for the vote that council needs to

take?

>> Well, I mean, I think the action has

already been taken by the court, so this

was just solidifying that action.

Exactly. But I just wanted to make sure

everybody had enough time to review the

order itself and then to um if you had

any additional questions in the interim.

>> Okay. I just didn't want to give the

appearance of like us rubber stamping in

getting done beforehand.

>> No, not at all.

>> Okay. So, I will um I move to add

resolution 58 of 2025 to our next

legislative session agenda. As I

mentioned, we will suspend the rules for

further discussion prior to voting. This

concludes the work of the administration

committee. The next committee business

you will hear lies with the budget and

finance committee. I will defer to our

budget and finance committee chair, Vice

President Green, to lead discussion.

>> Thank you, President Bowers. Uh for the

budget and finance committee, we will

discuss resolution 50 of 2025. Mr.

Parker, would you read it into the

record, please? Resolution

50 of 2025,

a resolution authorizing the submission

of a Dolphin County local shared

municipal grant application of up to

$250,000

to fund the renovation of the bedroom

accommodations and bathroom facilities

at Fire Station 1 located at 1820 North

6th Street.

>> Thank you. Thank you. And who do we have

from the city that will be speaking to

this resolution?

>> Uh Sam Sakosski, interim business

administrator. And I believe we have uh

chief under line also.

Chief, you there?

>> I'm here.

>> Okay.

>> You guys hear me?

>> Yes.

Excellent.

[Music]

Station.

[Music]

And this is another

And

[Music]

again for station one station.

Thank you very much. Um, I don't have

many questions. Uh, it seems pretty

simple. Uh, will this grant cover the

total cost or will the city still need

to add funds to this?

pretty good station.

>> Okay. Thank you very much. I don't have

any further questions. I'm going to open

it up to my colleagues. I'll start with

our public safety chair to my far left

with Councilman Jones.

>> Vice President Green, how are you?

Uh, Chief Enter. How are you, sir?

>> I'm well.

>> Uh, no questions. I see I have you back

here for not so much the same thing, but

very similar. So, I don't I don't have

any questions. I pretty under pretty

much understand what's happening here.

So, thank you, President Vice President

Green.

>> Thank you, Councilman Rodriguez, our

former public safety chair.

>> Thank you. Um, thank you for joining us,

Chief, and thank you for joining us this

evening. Um, Chief Enderline, when do

you recall the last time renovations

took place like that at uh on Sixth

Street?

>> Uh, never.

>> Gotcha. Gotcha. Definitely needed. Um, I

just wanted to I I can't recall a time

where there was, but uh those those

ladies and gentlemen definitely need the

proper amenities to get the job done.

So, um, no further questions for me.

Good to hear from you, Chief.

Thank you, Councilwoman Ross.

>> Thank you, Vice President Green. And

good evening, Chief Interline. How are

you this evening?

>> I'm doing well. I'm sitting in

Massachusetts currently.

>> Oh,

>> okay. Well, enjoy. Sorry to cut into it.

Um I don't have any questions. I think

more so I'm just concerned budgetwise,

which this doesn't have anything to do

with you um director um and her line. Um

but just I know uh we just sat through

and listened with the um

governor square that's much needed um

renovations and updates and just um a

whole lot of things for the residents um

that's going to we don't know how much

that's going to look and then we you

know also we have a a grant here but we

do have to give money towards it but

it's much needed at the fire station.

Um, so I just, um, I think my only, my

biggest concern is just budgetwise, just

having enough money. We've, we just got

ourselves out of debt. Um, so I mean, I

don't have questions. Just I'm concerned

about our budget and I don't know if

maybe Brian could come speak to us to

let us know um, how we're doing, what

these costs would look like, but I'm

just very, very concerned about our

budget. I don't want us to go back into

debt. Um, we must learn from our

mistakes. So that is my number one

concern with um this resolution and with

the resolution before this one. Um so 58

and 50 with our current budget. So if

that can get answered at all or given us

any information to make sure that we're

making some good sound financial

choices, I would appreciate that and I'm

sure the residents would too.

We have been budgeting for capital

improvements over the last years. We've

been doing it very slowly and very

incrementally

budget.

So that's number one.

presented to council regarding cuts at

the administrative level

over the next couple weeks. Uh is very

forcious.

Not saying

we're doing

renovation at one time and secondarily

because the city is in acted

Anyway,

so there will be no financing

bonds.

>> I get that.

>> Thank you, director and

I'm still concerned, but thank you. I

know we can't borrow. I'm just I'm still

concerned.

>> Madam Chair, if I may, Councilwoman

Ross, traditionally,

>> uh, when an entity puts in for the

Dolphin County Local Shares Municipal

Grant, um, the casino gaming grant, it's

usually a matching. So, ideally, we

would get it returned ideally.

>> Okay, that's hope. Thank you. I'm just,

you know, I'm just going to put my

concern out there. That's it.

>> Thank you. That's it.

>> If I may, there is no match required to

this at all.

Okay,

>> thank you.

>> There's no match.

>> It's fine.

>> Yes, he did say that. I thought I heard

it wrong, but I that's why I didn't say

anything. But okay,

>> it may cost a little bit slightly more

than the 250, but there's no but there's

no required match to the grain itself.

So,

>> the same way the LSA still

>> I understand that part and I heard there

was no match, but we still have to put

some, you know, it's still money. I'm

still concerned. So, and I'm just

putting my concern out there just to

make sure we're sound. Um, because there

have been some decisions made in the

past that just haven't been good for us.

We have

>> we're in act 47.

>> So,

>> Mr. Sakowski, what you're saying is

>> that's it.

>> We have a different provision with the

shares grant than traditionally.

>> The LSA, whether they're local grants or

statewide,

>> requires no match.

>> Okay.

>> Put money into it if you want.

>> Yeah. Well, usually you have to submit

uh for the grant. So, after you spend

the F money or you allocate the dollars,

you submit your receipts or whatever you

expended and the county repays from the

municipal share grant. But

>> this comes out of the local grant gaming

grant. Yes.

>> Okay. Because of the casino open

Grantsville. Okay.

>> So, uh but there's no there's no match

required. If the if the project costs

more than 250, then you don't have to do

the entire project. Maybe the word

matching is being you have to expend the

funds and then go after

>> reimburseable.

>> Yeah. Tech technically. Yes.

>> For the gaming grant. Yes.

>> Can you come speak on the microphone

that way?

>> Yeah. Because traditionally that's

>> the listening can hear you.

>> Yeah.

Um the the Dolphin County gaming local

share is a little unusual from almost

every other grant that we apply for in

that if we want to we can have the

county pay our vendors directly

>> which is which we don't I mean almost no

other no other grant allows us to do

>> or we could do it reimburseable. Um, so

>> so traditionally it's the reimburseable,

but is that the route we'll be taking

where we'll just submit the invoices to

the county to pay the vendors?

>> We can we can do that. We certainly can

if that's

>> we just haven't decided yet.

>> Right. Right. Right.

>> Got

reimbursement not

either way either way that that works

though because it works like that with

tourism as well. You can actually submit

the invoice directly to the vendor. Um,

but it takes some I mean we get the

money back, but it takes some time. Now,

we'll let you know.

>> It takes some time before you get that

money back.

>> I mean, the nice thing about having the

county pay directly to our vendors is

that they actually often pay more

quickly than we do

>> because they have a different process.

So, the vendors kind of

>> that's not a good thing.

>> They're more organized. But but we could

also do a mix like we could do, you

know, one payment that we do

reimburseable and we submit all the

invoices and cancel check images and

then they they pay us back and then the

next the next one we could just straight

pay the vendor. So the the county grants

are difficult to apply for, but once you

get them, they're actually incredibly

helpful and flexible about how

>> that was to councilwoman RS's point. She

just wanted to know where the funds were

being expended from. So, if we're going

after where we just submit the invoices,

then they'll be paying for it ideally or

it's a reimburseable grant,

>> right? Either either one in this case,

unusually either either. It can be

either one and for liquidity purposes,

it's nice to do the direct.

>> Thank you.

>> Yeah. Sorry.

>> Nothing else for me. Thank you.

>> Thank you, President Hill.

>> Um, good evening. I don't have any

questions. Thank you for clarifying,

Miss Bulmer, and thank you for joining

us on vacation, Chief Interline.

>> Yes. Thank you.

>> Thank you,

>> Councilwoman Davis.

>> No questions for me. Thank you.

>> Thank you. And Councilwoman Daniels,

>> no questions. Thank you.

>> Thank you. And thank you as well uh

Chief Interline for being here with us

tonight for taking the time out to make

sure that what needs to be done with uh

the city gets done. Uh in the future you

can send somebody else. You don't have

to come off a vacation.

>> But thank you for being here.

>> I gave him his choice.

>> I'm in a position

to make sure

I'm

We appreciate that. We appreciate your

dedication.

Um, if there are no other questions, I'm

going to recommend this move to our next

legislative agenda.

Thank you.

>> Thank you. The next committee business

you will hear uh comes from the Parks,

Recreation, and Enrichment Committee. I

will defer to our parks, recreation, and

enrichment committee chair, Councilwoman

Ross.

>> Thank you, President Hill. Uh, good

evening again everybody. Um, Mr. Parker,

can you please read Resolution 49 of

2025? Resolution

49 of 2025, a resolution authorizing the

city of Harrisburg to enter into a

reimbursement agreement amendment with

the Pennsylvania Department of

Transportation to accept an increased

award amount of $27,173

in transportation alternatives set aside

funding for the purpose of funding the

Capitol Area Green Belt Paxt Tang

Parkway Trail Restoration. ation

project.

>> Thank you so much, Mr. Parker. Is there

anybody anyone here from administration

who gives some more information on this

award?

>> Yes. Um my name is Debbie Reheart. I'm

senior project manager, Department of

Facilities and Special Projects and also

city representative to uh the Green

Belt.

>> Okay. Good evening. Yes. tell us all

about resolution 49 of 2025 and good

evening. Thank you for being here. I

know we saw each other earlier.

>> Yes. Um so we had received a funding

from PennDOT to do some work u paving

work on Pakistan Parkway as Scott

mentioned earlier and um the bids came

in slightly higher than was expected.

PENDOT will cover that um additional

27,000

dollars, but we needed to do a

resolution in order to accept that

additional funding.

>> That's easy.

>> We're getting money.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. So, I don't have any questions. I

I saw it was an award, so

>> but if you want to add something.

>> So, no match. I just want to make sure

we get that. No, I got I saw I saw a

ward and that lit me up really sparkly

there cuz we don't have to get any

money, but yes. No, I did I saw that.

So, I have no questions. I'll start to

my um far right with um Councilwoman uh

Daniels. Do you have any questions?

>> No questions. Thank you.

>> You're welcome. Um Councilwoman Davis,

do you have any questions?

>> You already clarified for me. No match.

No other questions. Thank you. You're

welcome. Vice President Green.

>> No, I don't have any questions. Thank

you.

>> You're welcome. Uh, President Hill,

>> no questions. Thank you.

>> Um, Councilman Rodriguez,

>> thank you, Madam Chair. Um, I mean, it's

pretty much a no-brainer. I just wanted

to get your opinions on why do you feel

the bids came in higher? Was it maybe

material inflation, tariffs, a little

bit of both? Um, what do you think

played a toll in that?

>> I would imagine it's a little bit of

both.

>> Little bit of both. Yep, that's that's

happening nationwide. So, but thank you

for being here this evening.

>> And Councilman Jones,

>> no questions.

>> Okay, thank you. That's it. You're all

done. Look at that.

>> And that ends the business of the parks,

recreation, and enrichment committee.

>> What is your pres pleasure?

>> So, I got so excited about that award

money.

>> Oh my goodness. We will be moving

resolution 49 of 2025 to our next

legislative agenda.

>> Thank you.

>> You're welcome.

>> Our final committee business this

evening lies with the public safety

committee. I will defer to our public

safety committee chairman, Councilman

Jones.

>> Thank you, President Hill. Uh Mr.

Parker,

>> can you read Bill

>> 8 into the record, please?

>> Certainly. Bill 8 of 2025, an ordinance

amending chapter 3-333

of the codified ordinances of the city

of Harrisburg entitled curfew providing

for an adjustment of hours of curfew for

minors and increasing penalties for

curfew violations.

>> Thank you, sir. And I see we have

Commissioner Carter and Deputy Chief

Young. Uh let's talk. Good evening.

Um, so yeah, um, again, I'm Deputy Chief

Young. Uh, what this is, what we're

looking to accomplish by this would be

to amend, uh, 3-33,

uh, which deals with curfew. Um, with

uh, two things. It deals with the uh,

the hours.

>> Excuse me. Can you move the microphone

closer to you?

>> Yeah, sorry.

>> That's okay. It deals with adjustment of

the hours uh for minors, anybody under

the age of 18. It also deals with some

increasement uh the increasing penalties

um uh for the uh for violations at

second and subsequent offenses so forth

so on. Um

so uh a little bit of background on this

recent

within the last year or so with the

issues we've had downtown. Uh that's

sort of kind of what we're aiming for

this. Um underneath the same ordinance,

the uh the commissioner has the ability

to adjust those times which we he issued

an order uh dated August 29th which was

effective on the 22nd actually which

adjusted the time of uh the the curfew

ordinance uh in the area of the downtown

and that would be from uh uh Front

Street uh Chestnut Street, Commonwealth

and Inforster. What that did was the the

time was adjusted uh from 900 pm curfew

until so they they couldn't be out from

9:00 p.m. at night till 6:00 in the

morning.

>> Um so uh again what we're aiming to do

and uh is try to correct those issues.

Um it's it seemed to have worked since

this has gone in. We've had we've seen

less less issues downtown with

juveniles. So,

>> commissioner got anything

>> just yet?

>> So, um first let me say this that u I'm

you know again when I was elected to

this uh office u one of the things that

I wanted to do is serve as a public

safety chair. Um like you I have great

concern for our residents and the safety

of them and the entire city of

Harrisburg. Right. Um and some of the

issues not only myself but some of the

residents have and questioning this

ordinance in particular that it's only

covering the downtown area. You know

>> it the ordinance covers the entire city.

What he referred to is previously the

commissioner put in a rule of

enforcement which he's entitled to do

under the ordinance that covered the

downtown area. If you read the ordinance

bill 8 to change the times for the

entire city.

>> Yes, I understand that it's read like

that. But when it was a personally

initiated and per Mr. Grover himself

said this was only for the downtown

area. That's something that he said not

that they did. I'm just

>> Well, like I said, I think speaking to

Mr. Rober, the first intention on a

temporary basis was to allow the

commissioner to exercise his right as a

rule under the ordinance to change the

hours as he sees fit in parts of town

that he sees fit. We decided so that

order was done I think he said August

29th.

>> It took effect

>> 22nd.

>> Sorry, I'll learn eventually. It took

effect on the 22nd. It was issued on the

29th

>> right now. The bill in front of you

though is for the entire city to reduce

the hours or to clarify the hours and

the citation amounts for the entire

city.

>> Yeah. So if I'm allowed to continue. So

I was just that was one of the issues

about it just covering the downtown

area. I'm just sharing what the issues

are with some of the questions that not

only myself but some of the residents

would like me to share with you as well.

So that's why I'm stating what I'm

stating. So, um, the other issue, um,

I'm glad and I can see it clearly in the

language that this is an ordinance for

the entire city, but the way it came

across from the press conference, it was

just downtown. That's all we're hearing

is downtown downtown. So, of course,

naturally, people would think that's

what this for. So, this is nothing but

an opportunity for you to explain this

is a city-wide ordinance um that will be

implemented. Now, one of the other

concerns is um and this this is

definitely not just me again this is

just the community as well at large um

how do we know how we're going to

approach how is this going to be

implemented is there going to be um

constant kind we want to minimize as

much contact with our young people as we

can without them being a nuisance or u

um causing any problems in the

community. So, um, how are you going to

be able to decide if this is a

17-year-old because the 18-year-old,

this this curfew is not going to affect

them at all? Right now, there's charges

that can be brought to them versus these

curfews, uh, this curfew. How will you

be able to make that discernment of who

is who? Can can someone speak to that?

>> Yes, Mr. Chair. I think that that can be

made by just a ation with them. You

know, like um I'm concerned for the

whole city, too, but at the time we were

having a tremendous problem with the

downtown area. U when we were down there

working, you know, juveniles were all

over the place just doing everything.

And uh we had drones up taking pictures

of them and you know, we took guns off

of them. Um we got guns out of cars and

everything like that, you know. So what

I did um we just felt a need to put a

curfew down for that purpose. But um um

as attorney said, you know, we did a

curfew for the whole city and and um the

fines were raised. But let me say this

here,

the codifier ordinance is just an

ordinance.

>> A district justice, that's us have to

follow this, okay? But we have to put

something in place to maintain some sort

of law in order with what our young

people are out there doing. If my guys

had a curfew citation, it can go in

front of a district justice and they

just say, "Uh, okay."

>> That's with any of our things that we

have in place. This happens with parking

tickets and everything.

>> What I'm saying is that u we we'll have

conversation with them and if necessary,

my guys will take them if they're

juveniles, they'll probably just take

them home and just drop them off.

>> You know, we're not out there trying to

hurt juveniles or juveniles parents. We

just want compliance and we're is

looking out for the safety of our youth.

>> And I get that. And I get that. Um, and

I'm glad you brought up the the issuing

of the increasing of the fines from 200

to 500. And I think it's now from 300 to

a,000.

>> Yes.

>> Um,

I mean, I know it's hopefully it's meant

to be a deterrent, but I'm sure you guys

know that our residents a $100 fine

would hurt some of these people, right?

It would hurt him. Go ahead.

>> You're not listening to me, sir.

>> Okay. I am.

>> Thank you.

>> When the DJs get the citations, they may

make them $50 or just kick them out, you

know, because as police, we can't make

up finer cost.

Are you following me?

>> Oh, yeah. I know.

>> Okay.

>> But I'm say again, we we're this is

something that has to be enforced. Um, I

mean, if we're doing our job for police

officers, again, there is that other

side of the spectrum where you have to

look at the district justice and see if

they're going to do what they need to do

when it comes to this. Are they going to

follow our provisions or our ordinance

and and implement these costly fines?

And I'm just saying the cost of them

itself on paper is just looks I this is

let me be honest with you guys. I was

just looking at the um the press

conference when you and the mayor were

speaking um and some of the business

owners that were downtown. Um for one,

again, it did look like it was just

centered for downtown. You made a

clarity on that. Uh my concern is again,

how are we going to approach these young

people? Um we want to minimize as much

as that. Do we know it's these 17 year

olds? It could be someone that's 20 just

not old enough to go in and drink. you

know, how do we make that discernment of

who's who? And when we look at the um

the language that was used around these

conversations,

I would rather see more restorative

than punitive.

It just seemed like if your kid is not

there, if you don't have your kid with

you, we're going to give you a fine.

We're going to cite you. We're going to

give you a fine. And I just think that

we need to be careful. I think there's

other approaches that I think that we

could work on together just using some

of the we paid for credible messengers.

We can use some of those people. This is

what's happening in in Baltimore, you

know, in their downtown nightife. And

I'm not even talking about all over the

city. I'm just talking about some of the

areas that show concern where the

numbers were high with this uh activity

with these young folks. They use

residents

along with law enforcement. But the

resident that that credible messenger

will be able to say something to this

young man or young woman, hey, you know,

the curfew is in effect and redirect

them without even having to have that

police contact or interaction. But I

think the residents are concerned and

and myself included is how are we going

to discern who's 18 17 by are we doing

stop and fris or I mean how do we get to

this point? That's that's my concern and

my question.

>> I think that you're reading too much

into it now. talking about stop and

frisk. That's totally totally different,

you know. We're talking about a summary

citation for curfew just just holding a

conversation with somebody, you know.

And if they're 18 years old, they're

fine. If they're 17 years old, nine

times out of 10, my guys who are already

busy will say, "Young man, where do you

live at? I'll take you home."

>> That's a solution. But again, my

question I am right now, you're not

listening to me. My question is how how

how do you approach? So you so you're

saying on a typical night on a on a

weekend 9 or 10 o'clock whenever hours

you chose to to uh implement this

curfew, you're just going to be walking

up to people saying, "Hey, how old are

you?" That's what I'm asking.

>> No. Um there are different reasons why

we would approach somebody. You know,

usually it's all from somebody calling

in, you know,

>> with a description. with a description

or somebody saying, you know, hey, you

know, um there's a loud noise. There's a

bunch of kids outside on this corner A,

B, or C. You know, basically, you know,

we're not going to ride around looking

for people to like stop. It's going to

be on a call or something like that.

>> Well, that's that's all I was asking.

How do we how are we going to decide

who's 17, 18? You like just through

conversation. And so, when I use the

stop and press, of course, we don't want

to use that. we've seen how horrible

that was, right? But um again, I think

those are the concerns of the again

myself and and the residents here.

They're really concerned about how do

you discern that? And that's all I just

wanted you to give a um give you the

opportunity to share with the public on

how that will transpire. So, um and I'll

come back to you guys. I don't want to

hog this up. I'm going to open this up

to the u to my colleagues and I'll start

to my immediate right. But Councilman

Rodriguez,

>> thank you, Chair. Uh, thank you, DC

Young. Thank you, Commissioner, for

joining us this evening. Um,

being an educator for going on four

years now, working with primarily at

risk youth is concerning. And not saying

that's your intention. Um, I just want

to be very cautious that we don't

violate anyone's constitutional rights.

Of course, it wouldn't be stopping

frisk, but to engage and say, "Hey, how

old are you?" That is kind of like

cradling that line. Um, what if, you

know, maybe he's a minor but getting off

work and just so happens to get caught

into something. Do they now have to pay

a fine because they were just You get

what I mean though? How do we determine

what you mean?

>> Decipher in your ordinance, it gives,

you know, situations. If you're just

coming, if you're coming from work,

that's fine. If you're coming from a

school function,

>> that's fine. If you're coming from a

city sponsorship function, that's fine.

If you have a note from your parents

saying that you were over A and B's

house and you're going home, that's

fine.

>> Okay. And then I just I wanted to ask

whose idea was it for the orange

barriers? It it was it was just too

much. Um and I mean the calls I I know

myself, I'm pretty sure council as a

whole has gotten a lot of calls. It just

was a bit distasteful and it made the

area look like a war had taken place and

that's just not the truth. Um, on on the

flip side of it, I hear a lot of people

saying that they weren't minors at all.

So, how did we decipher if it was minors

first and what what were the purpose of

the orange barriers besides actually

stopping patrons for going in the stores

and enjoying the establishments?

>> The orange barriers were placed there

because people were pulling up in their

personal vehicles serving juveniles

alcohol

>> on the curb.

>> The cars. Yes.

>> So, so um it was decided to put orange

barriers up there to try to stop that

function.

>> Okay, thank you for that answer. Um, now

as you're aware of the codified

ordinance already has curfews and they

do exist, but to this day they're really

not in force due to the shortage of the

department. So, how are we ensure by

making taking these drastic measures

that would be any different and we' be

able to implement and really um ensure

that we can handle it at this point

because there's you know we do have a

curfew. We've always had a curfew but we

have never been able to fully you know

really hold children or the youth anyone

18 or under to that. How would now be

any different?

Well, back when um the Kifa ordinance

first came out with the curfew back in

when I was first hired way back when, we

had 210 officers and so we had details

details. Right now, I'm 35 officers

short and so therefore, you know, we

can't answer calls and enforce curfews

too. But however, since the situation

has arisen to a point of concern,

you know, we have to got to do

something. And so what we're doing with

our different grants that we have

gotten, we're forming like different

details to get out there and we do

curfew details. We do everything. So

that's why, you know, we're focusing not

so much on curfew, but we're focusing on

juvenile safety.

>> That was that was to my point,

Commissioner, because I know at one

point we had the compliment to achieve

this, but now I know we don't.

>> And we have officers at Giants. We have

officers already spread too thin. And as

you know, we just got to get our people

to take the test, right? Like it's

something I've been screaming and

kicking and screaming for a while. Until

we can figure out how that's done, how

would we be able to manage something if

we currently can't manage the curfews as

they sit?

>> And I don't want to beat the dead horse

detail. We run a special detail, a extra

duty detail and officers are

they are volunteered and they come in on

their own time and they work the detail

and it won't I don't once again I hate

to beat the dead horse. It won't be stop

and friskes. It won't really be impeding

on like constitutional rights. It' be

like case to base. We got a call. We

showed up to 17 from Regina Street.

There's a couple youngs out here. Hey,

where you guys going? Is that what I'm

hearing or will it be? Yes, they won't.

>> Club owners like Commissioner, they're

down here again and you guys are like

all cars down looking for juveniles

>> cuz that's what we kind of want to

avoid, especially if we're trying to

make amends with the relationship

between the juveniles and the city. Um,

and give them things to do and have them

as productive as possible. It just I'm

not going to say counterproductive, but

it's just it's like a curveball when

when it already sits. What would be the

difference between already enforcing the

curfew we have now instead of just

raising the penalty? Why couldn't we

just really go hard and enforce as it is

now?

>> We are not trying to arrest any

juveniles.

>> No, no, no. That wasn't the question.

I'm sorry, Commissioner. What I mean is

instead of changing anything in the

ordinances, why couldn't we just come to

a kumbayan agreeance like, hey, let's

just really go in on the curfew now.

Like, let's just really what's already

there, we don't really have to change it

or threaten parents because it's already

hard for a lot of our parents to make

ends meet. me being one of them with

five kids putting them through college.

I'm just trying to be, you know, call a

spade a spade up in those fines might

even, you know, someone could lose their

house if it they got to pay between

their mortgage and their son might have

had a bad night one night. You know, he

might have just needed some guidance.

Why couldn't we just kind of really

enforce as it sits now and kind of all

make an agreeance like, hey, let's just

really enforce the curfew now that we

know we have XYZ problems. Why do we

really need that? we're trying to do now

is enforce the curfew that is presently

here.

>> Correct.

>> Okay.

>> Without the need to like adjust or

>> as far as the final cost, you know, like

the final cost is what is it said here.

I didn't make it up. It was already

here.

>> Right.

>> So,

>> well, what what I'm saying is without

increasing without increasing or

adjusting or adapting, why couldn't we

just all say, "Hey, there's really a

need right now to enforce the curfew."

Because in my opinion, if there's

anything we need to adjust, it would be

the illegal dumping, right? Let's let's

raise that to send a message out. Hey,

don't tear our communities up. Don't

throw stuff in Miss Jackson's backyard.

Think that needs to be raised if

anything. Not like a curfew enforcement.

Just my opinion.

>> I respect that, sir. But the ball is in

y'all's court because

you will decide if the penalties raised,

not me.

>> Okay.

>> You know, the only thing that we're here

to do is talk about and the curfew has

been here

>> since when?

>> Absolutely.

>> Oh, yeah. Long time.

And then, Commissioner, what about

unhoused juveniles?

How would that play a role if they don't

have a residence?

>> Well, it's also in the in the ordinance

right now, too. If we come across any

unhoused juvenile, we're going to do

everything that we can to, you know, to

contact the county, the school district,

and and everybody that we can to make

sure that they're off the street and

that they're safe. Will we offer a level

of case management at that time if we

engage in an unhoused juvenile? Okay.

>> Yes. Definitely. Awesome. Definitely.

>> We're going to try to get them with the

necessary resource they need. And I

understand I mean there there are a lot

out there. Absolutely. So they count

surf for whatever it is. So I mean it's

not to penalize penalize those and we're

focused so heavily on fines right now.

The the the other amendment to that that

penalty section is the bottom end. It

basically says that community services

is now available as well, which the old

ordinance did not do that. So, that's

another not to dig in people's pockets

and and that's what we're not trying to

do.

>> I respect that,

>> but that is another avenue to to to the

problem as well.

>> And I and I don't want to come off as

like

>> the naysayer. I'm just and I respect

what you guys are doing from the

department all the way to the

administration to the mayor's office.

And I mean, something has to be done,

right? I just don't know if this is

quite it when we already have something

on the books that we can't quite fully

enforce to begin with. Um, but I do

appreciate, you know, because any little

bit or even just just right now

spitballing ideas, I think is a big part

of the work. So, I do appreciate what

you gentlemen are doing and hopefully we

can come to even ground with it. Thank

you.

>> No further questions,

>> Councilwoman Ross.

>> Thank you, Councilman Jones. And good

evening. Thank you both for being here

tonight to explain the amendments for

bill 8 of 2025.

I know that um there have been some

issues um downtown. I know this is not

just about downtown as you pointed out.

Um I know our juveniles or are young our

youth are young people, I hate to call

them juveniles, that's already putting

them in the system. Um there they've

been having some issues. there's been

some trouble. Um I just

my concern with it was just I don't want

to be punitive about it. I don't want to

um place him in this this box or this

place. Um I feel like I see the good

that's trying to come out of this

amendment to it, but I can also see um

the phone calls made on them. Um, I can

see possible lawsuits coming from it

just because I think it's going to get a

little bit out of hand. Although it's an

amendment, it's something we already

have in place, but I

I don't know. I I really have some tough

issues uh with the amendment. Um,

I don't know. It's

I have a lot of questions I can't

formulate. I have um a lot of concerns.

I just feel like there can be better

resolutions and I don't mind working on

some with everybody but trying to figure

out what we can do but I do feel like

it's going to become punitive. I feel

like these resources and be placed

elsewhere like we have uh people

speeding down division street. We have

people speeding down State Street. And

if we can use resources there instead of

amending this and having more officers

in place for this which I think you said

would happen. you. No, I did not say

>> I thought that was I heard somebody say

that part. I

>> did not say that.

>> Okay. Um I don't know. I know this is

just an amendment, but I can just see it

going somewhere else.

>> Honestly,

I I think the intention of the amendment

was to give the police another tool in

their toolbox to handle. I mean, people

forget that these teens very easily at

their age could get a disorderly

conduct, criminal charge. So, I think

the curfew aspect was a way to try to go

away from criminalization,

give the parents some some input and

say, because what is your mom going to

say if she gets a fine? You know, that's

another deterrent that I think the goal

was just to give the police another tool

in their toolbox to be able to do

something about the problem that was

occurring. That was the intention of the

way the amendment was written.

>> But, madam solicitor, that tool exists

already.

That tool exists already. It's not like

it's not there. The tool exists,

>> right? But at the time with the things

that occurred after National Night Out,

the time changing the time was thought

would help them. Okay, if you're

supposed to be home, get some of them

off the street, you know what I mean? At

an earlier time, this all, you know, it,

like I said, the downtown area was the

first focus. Now was just the whole

city.

>> I just don't think it's going to work.

It hasn't. I just I think making this

amendment isn't going to make a

difference because there's a bigger

issue. Um we need to redirect our

resources in different ways for our

youth. We need to give them more

opportunities. We There's so many more

things we could do and this is just this

is just not the answer. This is not it's

more community involvement, more

education. It's um

recreation centers. It's swimming pools

that make sense.

>> I respect what you're saying.

>> It's all of those things. It's not It's

not amending a curfew that hasn't

worked. That's not going to work. It's

just throwing I don't know. It's It's a

waste of time. And I hate to say it that

way. And I love that you all are trying

to make this amendment and that you are

trying to find a resolution to what is

happening. And I respect you for that.

Please know that I'm not coming at you