Harrisburg City Council Policy Session 04/30/24

e

good evening everyone the time is 5:32

p.m. I would like to call our policy

work session to order

Mr trale could you please call the role

Miss Daniels

here Miss Davis

present Miss

green Mr Jones here miss

rolls Mr Rodriguez present Miss Bowers

present please note councilwoman RW is

excused this evening and I believe we

will be joined by vice president green

later

just a few comments before we begin our

topic for tonight's policy work session

is Ghost guns um you may have seen a

little preview on the news the other day

um but it is something that was

discussed during our last um quarterly

report for the first quarter of 2024

from the Bureau of police they noted uh

the number of ghost guns that had been

seized to this point um before We Begin

our presentation I wanted to uh see if

our Public Safety chair councilman Jones

had anything he wanted to say before we

begin uh thank you president bers um

just basically to um your your points um

you know we've seen uh a lot of ghost

guns being

confiscated um in the city of Harrisburg

over a course over a period of time by

the Harrisburg Police Department and um

this is a growing issue in a lot of uh

community ities around uh Pennsylvania

you know so I think this is something

that we we can get in front of and uh

build out an ordinance for it if

possible and um reached out to Mr flood

cease fire to uh give us a little

presentation on some of this so all

righty okay thank you we're joined by Mr

Brandon flood who serves as the deputy

director of government affairs with

sepire PA Mr flood thank you council

president hours thank you council

members for your Indulgence uh anyone

from the community too thank you for

your interest um you know before so what

I'm going to do is I'm going to kind of

lay the table this will be as formal as

I'll be and then after that we can kind

of informally do a Q&A um but before I I

begin my remarks I want to say that I am

a gun owner um so I'm certainly very

mindful even though I work for an

organization that advocates for gun

violence prevention we also are in the

business of advocating for responsible

gun ownership so at least wanted to set

the table that this is this is this

policy isn't and certainly I don't

represent myself as a gun Grabber we're

about responsible gun ownership

particularly in Harrisburg city um that

being said um the issue of ghost guns

making their uh way into the hands of

criminals is a growing problem in our

cities and for our law enforcement

officials Statewide or na Nationwide

rather uh to illustrate how Insidious

this issue is law enforcement a gencies

nationally now this is give some context

in 2016 2016 alone there were

1,758 ghost guns that were recovered

nationally by the ATF now that's 2016 uh

between the period of 2016 to 2021 we

seen that number Sky Skyrocket to close

to 50,000 ghost guns that are recovered

and again these are recovery rates that

doesn't account for how many are

actually in circulation and have not yet

been recovered um as Council councilman

Jones alluded to he talked about uh the

unique issue or might have been council

president uh Bowers who talked about the

news uh CBS 21 did a probably was ABC 21

abc27 but 21 did a brief uh feature

about Central P about how it's impacting

uh Central PA York Harrisburg Lancaster

uh and in that report they mention that

the city of Harrisburg since 2020

recovered 51 ghost guns again recovery

doesn't mean you know how many doesn't

represent how many are actually in

circulation so it's this kind of

phenomena this isn't just unique to the

city of Harrisburg this has happened in

nationally in fact it was this

phenomenon that prompted the Biden

Administration and the Bureau of Alcohol

Tobacco firearms and explosives to issue

a final rule in April of 2022 that

Define ghost gun kits as Firearms under

the law so that government could be more

uh so that government could more

carefully regulate them by ensuring

proper Market marking record keeping and

traceability uh for those of you who may

not be familiar with ghost guns and and

you'll hear this term used

interchangeably the the real policy is

unfinished firearm build kits right so

these are kits that come I like to

describe them as a the Ikea of guns you

know you you purchase these uh pieces

that are unassembled and it allows the

the user uh you know especially least

80% kits you have a partially complete

kit for you to assemble and whether you

you get the remaining parts from a using

a 3D printer or from some other means

you're you're able to build a functional

firearm uh which does not have any uh

serial numbers and cannot be traced so

that's why you hear the term ghost guns

ghost guns I like to say are more so

used are the ones that are being uh

crime guns that don't have any

serialization or markings that are out

there floating around and aren't you

know these aren't people that are just

building guns for themselves right you

know because that's the one thing to to

bear in mind too is this policy in no

way shape and form prevents someone from

being able to build their own gun um you

know even if there were a Statewide uh

initiative doesn't Pro prohibit them

from doing so you can still do so if you

can lawfully possess a firearm the the

difficulty becomes is if you don't have

a background check for someone who's

buying these pieces you can't ascertain

whether or not they are law for or not

so that's the the that's what this

initiative certainly is looking to

address so you know as I told you you

know the rule that was issued in 2022 by

uh the Biden Administration know while

that was a a certainly a great first

step forward um there weren't any

additional resources allocated to uh

federal law enforcement to enforce these

rules right so we can make all the laws

and rules and regulations we want all

day long but if we don't have the

infrastructure or the uh just the

capacity to be able to enforce uh these

these rules um you know they're pretty

much in effective so that's part of why

what we're looking at doing is you know

we watch what happened in the city of

Philadelphia in 2021 they introduced the

same ordinance uh they were sued by Gun

Owners of America ultimately that case

made it to Commonwealth Court where

common the Commonwealth Court affirmed

the legality and constitutionality of

that ordinance so what we want to do

here is be able to equip our local

officials with the ability to address

these issues I I consider this to be a

stop Gap measure this isn't something

that we think you know and we'll see

that later on down the line but we we we

also and I talked about that case in

Philadelphia even though the

Commonwealth Court affirmed that ruling

gun owners the The Gun Owners of America

they appealed that case to the

Pennsylvania Supreme Court and that's

where it's currently at uh but that that

ordinance Still Remains valid in

Philadelphia as we speak also on the

national side many of you may have seen

too uh you heard me talk about that

those rules that were issued by the

Biden Administration in in in

2022 uh that also made it the court and

currently the United States Supreme

Court is going to be taking up the issue

of ghost guns uh hopefully sometime this

year uh but one of the things to to be

mindful of is that the Supreme Court

stayed the the the regulations so those

regulations that were issued by the bid

and administration still remain in in

effect until which time that the Supreme

Court issues its ruling so I know a lot

of folks are going to talk about and you

guys as a municipality have experienced

in the past lawsuits uh I would say in

this case certainly uh if this ordinance

were to be enacted I don't foresee any

challenges uh happening until which time

that both the PA Supreme Court and the

United State United States Supreme Court

issue some guidance on this stuff so you

know that's part of the reason why we

are reaching out the municipalities uh

the the first municipality we reached

out to was the city of York uh we also

had that commissioner malro there who

was also in support of this initiative

you know uh the city of York and I'm

sure you know councilman uh Jones uh is

dealing with the same issues that

Harrisburg is dis uh dealing with it is

our intent to go to all of our larger

metropolitan areas uh and and Advance

these initiatives so our next our next

city that's up is going to be Pittsburgh

um and we're also having some

conversations with Aluna so and in terms

of what this ordinance does functionally

so all that all that we're asking as

body to do uh is to introduce this

ordinance so that it dictates that

anyone using a 3D printer for the

purposes of printing Firearms or firearm

Parts be required to be a federal

firearms licensee I did send some

handouts in advance to uh Jared where

it's it's a literally a 10 easy 10 step

process to become a federal firearms

licensee it's not certainly burdensome

again me as a gun owner I've had to go

through the ATF for certain uh for

certain

certifications um so you know again it

may be an inconvenience but it certainly

um doesn't it doesn't encroach upon

one's uh uh Second Amendment rights so

that's what this ordinance would do you

know again back to what we talk about

enforcement one of the questions that

come up is you know how are you guys

going to if this is ultimately enacted

here you guys going to enforce this so

there's a you know this is where you

guys can become creative here right

there's a number of different ways

obviously the the the first uh method of

enforcement would be as folks understand

that this is an ordinance in this city

some you know greater self-regulation

right you know we we know that just

because you make a law not all folks

follow the law but there are some folks

that operate in that gray area right if

you're not expressly telling me what I

can't do or I can do we're going to find

that loophole so you know that's you

know so self-regulation is the first

piece and then task force too right this

allows you guys to impanel task force

and I was talking to councilman uh

Rodriguez earlier outside whether you're

creating a new task force or you're

adding a different facet to an existing

task force right so you guys have the

parent task force that was recently

created you heard me talk about that CBS

21 interview that happened they said one

of the biggest uh targets that law

enforcement are focused in their energy

on are young people young people are

accessing these guns CU you can

literally buy these these these

unfinished firearm Bill kits online uh

for any of you that have children you

know that they have access to no credit

cards my son my 12-year-old has credit

cards and cash cards and and the like so

you know they said that was the target

population and if you know and I have

colleagues that work in the Juvenile

Justice System where they've had kind of

these uh feedback sessions and when they

would ask them where are you guys

getting these guns from they say can buy

them online right we people are buying

them online so these task force will be

certainly helpful and enforcing and

being able to focus in on these uh these

these these type of weapons even if it

is parents right you know parents being

more Vigilant in the homes right you see

these K you might see a part of a gun

that may resemble a a a toy gun right so

there's there's stuff that can be done

on the task force side and then

information campaigns right you know

whether that's you know I know and of

and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong

I don't know how

many gun dealers now there might be ffls

in the city that may operate from you

know their basement but how many gun

actual gun stores you have in Harrisburg

City I don't think there is any that are

there may be on the outside like lower

packs them and the like so information

campaigns I say that this say is that

people understand hey this is an

ordinance again you you help educate

someone so that they can self-regulate

um you know so if you are engaging uh

stores or or folks that operate in that

way you know one other thing that makes

Harrisburg very unique is that you guys

have the farm show which they usually

have those very big outdoor shows right

where you have a lot of these well not

won necessar say I won't necessarily say

ghost guns but all types of weapons are

being sold so you know it certainly

brings a very robust crowd here the farm

show is situated in the city um so again

this is very this makes it an an even

greater incentive uh for the city to

enact this ordinance and again in a stop

Gap stop Gap matter be able to address

this while we wait for uh the high court

both on the state and the uh US Supreme

Court to act on this stuff um and then

too just see something if you know you

know just like if you for those you that

take the train or the uh airplane to see

something say something campaign same

type of deal right you know at the you

know in a perfect world we would love to

be able to allocate salaries for people

to be focused on this and enforce this

but we have to be creative and use the

resources we have more importantly um

especially if we're talking about our

youth engage our parents and and and ask

them to be accountable to themselves and

be more vigilent so um I'm going to put

a pause right there and I will open it

up for any questions uh that anyone may

have okay um thank you Mr flood um this

for me you you answered a lot of the

questions that I was want to have uh for

you um for the viewers and um some

people in the audience to actually hear

uh those things but you know uh one of

the things that you said is one of my

biggest concerns is um our youth you

know as uh the Commissioners here him

and I had a conversation earlier um and

just looking at the numbers of incidents

with our youth and juveniles and you

know um and a lot of them are getting

into this just like you said is easily

accessible to them um and that would be

the concern for me and I hope that uh we

would do a lot of Education I would I

would intend to do a lot of uh education

around uh making the parents and the

community aware of these I'm sure they

heard of them but um again just looking

at how easily they are accessed assessed

by um using um online um we we look them

up you can get the purchase these kits

for about 20 bucks um all the way up to

AR-15s and those those seem to be a

problem um they wanted to try to I guess

try to discontinue them or make them um

not uh to assault rifle cuz right now

they're not considered an assault rifle

that that's what makes them easily

accessible so my concern would be for

the Youth in our community get easily

assessing these things um not being um

licensed um and and and they're just not

able to trace them so that's one of my

biggest concerns and um you you spoke on

a point of what enforcement would look

like and I think um we could find a a

creative way to to um again add some

Focus again because there are task force

that our police force already have out

there they already have gang units and

things of that nature you know I don't

know what it would look like to add that

item to the agenda you know for you guys

but um that is something that I would

definitely would be considering to do

and also just making sure that the

community is informed as much as

possible about this so with that it

seemed like you wanted to respond yeah

yeah so two things number one um now

mention in the the Biden Administration

one of the things that they did probably

maybe the last three months is they

reached out to all uh all school

districts administrators for all school

districts to teach you know to get them

to engage the student body and parents

about the safe storage of firearms right

you know a lot of parents a lot of kids

live in homes where uh the parents do

have firearms that may not be properly

stored so the same thing can have the

same kind of dynamic when it comes to

the ghost guns right engaging even the

school district and any campaigns that

they may already have in conjunction of

what's happening with the the Biden

Administration and then I also want to

mention too now I didn't necessarily go

into um the Commonwealth Court the the

rationale for the Commonwealth Court's

uh reasoning for affirming uh the city

of Philadelphia's ordinance so in

Pennsylvania they have what's known as a

Statewide preemption statute that

dictates uh that dictates how Firearms

the possession of firearms even

ammunition are regulated essentially

says that the state is to be the the the

entity that dictates the regulation

thereof so doesn't allow municipalities

to do so so you guys have seen in the

past with I think the public discharge

ordinance in the past same thing with

York um but what what's unique in this

case is that these kits are these these

these guns are un they're disassembled

right so they're they're not they're not

a complete firearm so because they are

in Parts they do not constitute a gun

and thus aren't subject to that state

preemption statute so that's that was

kind of the workaround for that that uh

ordinance and from what I'm told from

the uh the attorneys from Philadelphia

uh that was you know that was deliberate

you know and them in and and advancing

this ordinance so you know know this

opens the door for cities um if in the

past you could do anything about uh any

Firearms this gives you gives localities

more agency uh to be able to do

something again in a stop Gap measure in

a stop Gap way until it's time that

either the Pennsylvania General Assembly

does something broadly on this or until

we see what the US Supreme Court

dictates so one of the things that you

mentioned too um with this ordinance out

of Philadelphia being them being a first

class city um and you said that we we we

would have freedom so is that just

working with our solicitor and and and

making sure that is formulated the right

that um that we can I guess uh uh

formulate it into a third class city

ordinance yeah I'm going to start with I

don't know the answer to that um it and

it's we have to find a way to make it

fall into the enumerated powers um

Philly will be a very good example they

they have a different structure than us

and they have more constitutional

freedoms than third class cities do um

and but it's going to take a little bit

of

thought whether we're you know what is

the enforcement mechanism because that's

really the challenging part is is it

possession of a ghost gun is a

possession of a 3D printer is it the

printing of a program that isn't a like

what those things are going to take a

little bit of thought what is it you're

trying to nip in the butt exactly and go

ahead right so so so that's going to

take a little Nuance to to dig into um I

I I believe the uh issue about

disassembled Parts is is a helpful one

um I don't know what the us or state

supreme court is going to do but I think

both going to make decisions that may or

may not match up um as far as I'm aware

there are three other gun matters

pending in front of the state supreme

court right now um and our gun case from

2015 we were back in court yesterday at

just another motion another argument

still in the county court it's been up

and down and up and down um so you know

I think you have to go into this

expecting someone will challenge it

absolutely um there's ways to manage

that as well on the front end including

when you make it effective right and and

I had a conversation as well um you know

again with with our commissioner and one

of the things that um you know as an

ordinance if if they grab someone with

with and then they uh send this over to

the DJ's office it could be a concern

that it gets kicked from there so I

think one of the other steps um for me

to do is to have a conversation with the

president judge um and also the district

attorney you know to make sure that

we're on the same page if if this

ordinance is and that can help with some

of the enforcement in in in my opinion

and I think the district attorney is

going to be a

critical uh person to have involved

chief law enforcement for the county

their their view of this is going to

matter well I I I've already had

conversations with um district attorney

Charo and um he was he he said he would

love to see uh you know some some some

resolution or ordinance for this you

know and again um I know a lot of it's

dependent on what happens in the federal

on the federal level but um as it stands

there is it seems to be a way that we

can put something on the books and again

like you said um strategically and

crafting this to fit you know in a way

and one of the things for me to see is

again just

not I I still don't think that it would

stop them from being able to access but

long as there's some type of penalty

behind it you know there already is is

but you know them being a these young

kids being able to get these guns we

need a way to deter them from utilizing

guns period but especially ghost guns

they're they're growing concern like you

said across the the nation yeah I I

think ghost guns just thinking it

through the concern is and this is why

we talked about the manufacturing on a

printer we're we're not as it sounds

it's not as much as against the

possession of it right cor it's against

stopping the flow of it happening in the

first place which is the Big Challenge

and without it being tracked again like

you said you have we all have a right to

bear arms if you can legally do so yes

right right and so but but we're trying

to get the manufacturers that may or may

not be in Harrisburg Pennsylvania

absolutely right that's the absolutely

so again is that the part of the case

that happened for the for the eastern

district where they stopped the sell of

it for at least four years or something

well yeah I me I'm glad you meant that

mention that too so that's another

enforcement mechanism too you know I

gave you guys ated a few but what the

city of Philadelphia did is that they

actually sued two of the largest now I'm

not saying that's what Harris P to do

but you know let you guys decide that

but um what they did was they sued two

of the largest ghost gun or ghost gun

kit makers um in the country polymer 80

as well as jsd Supply uh what you

reference is uh polymer 80 they came to

a mutual agreement with the city uh they

will no longer be selling any kits this

is polymer 80 in Philadelphia and

surrounding uh counties uh for four

years uh and then jsd Supply won't be

selling products for four years

um and that's Statewide so you know

these are things that that's another

another if you want to look at another

method of enforcement again it's an

opportunity to be creative about how to

do that to to Neil's Point too this

ordinance would not be uh doesn't would

not penalize someone for merely

possessing a 3D printer obviously it's

the intent of what you or what you do

with the printer if you know because you

can make a lot of things with 3D

printers not just Firearms um so no it

would so so real fast um Neil this may

be a question for you so with the with

the ban of that those sales for that

elim I mean that amount of time four

years in the state of Pennsylvania

correct so they would they would no

longer ship those things to this area

right now what New Jersey Maryland them

sipping mean so my point though my point

so that's what I'm saying I think

something else comes out of that now it

becomes trafficking it comes something

else 80 um their prohibition applies to

surrounding counties and surrounding

states so your surrounding state but

again it's only it's a finite period

four years four years um and again this

was something that they broker

themselves again part of just having

that convers you know maybe not have to

necessarily lead to litigation but

having a conversation engaging those

manufacturers obviously these are the

two largest there's a lot of Outfitters

that that that make these uh products

available or that you can purchase them

from um and then to the the thing that

um no had mentioned about an effective

date right you know one of the things is

you know obviously in a perfect world we

want to wait to see what happens on the

state level or happens on the US you

know with the Supreme Court uh but you

know we it's it's a we never know when

that will happen right so again this

kind of goes back to what I mentioned

about utilizing this as a stop Gap

measure right so kind of temporarily

even if that's built into the language

of the ordin to to Neil's point when

that effective date would be would it be

effective at you know right here or you

know so or even say when the sunsets or

the repeal right may be contingent upon

X Y and Z so it gives you guys some some

flexibility and again this is meant to

be a stop G measure you know part of

what our organization does you know my

my primarily Lobby uh the state so we do

have House Bill 777 which is a uh anti-

ghost gun Bill and and that bill is a

little bit different it just addresses

the issue of

serialization uh just requiring that

these kids have serial numbers and that

there be a penalty for people purchasing

attempting to purchase these these kits

that don't have serial numbers and then

conversely for uh dealers or sellers

that are sell knowingly selling these

these kits that do they are not

serialized so you know and again you

know to be frank with you and I said the

same thing to York City Council is um

I'm I'm pretty confident that the Senate

will not take up the the Bill did make

it out of the house it's in the Senate

chamber I'm pretty confident that the

Senate Majority Leader uh um Joe Pitman

will not have have this run so you know

you won't see that bill passed out this

session or probably the subsequent uh

session either so again this kind of

goes back to what can we do locally in

the meantime until this the state or you

know or uh the federal government gets

their together Mr chairman can I

ask a

question do you mind go ahead so I'm

trying to understand the part kit can I

basically buy the partial kit to do part

of it online and the rest of it online

too like how do how do I complete the

project I'm the purchaser so you could

do that or this goes back to the 3D

printer or you can 3D print what what

else you need right um and

again the difficulty is again we we talk

about and I always preface this is that

doesn't stop lawful people who can

lawfully own a firearm from you know

because there's people that do this as a

hobby as a pastime right and they're

very enthusiasts when it comes to this

so you know the difficulty is being able

to ascertain whether someone's a

prohibited purchaser at the time of them

purchasing these kits um and and trying

to be proactive versus find out after

the fact oh this person was prohibited

you know after I'm assuming that kits by

being

incomplete gets around all kinds of laws

Listen by percent I guess if I'm selling

both P to the kit I'm really selling the

whole thing right and and actually what

happened um what we've seen happen too

is when when the Biden Administration

issued uh those rules on ghost guns in

2022 is it it

expressly uh focused in on 80% kits so

all the manufacturers did slower 70% kit

right 79% kit you know so you know we we

kind of you know is you know we're we're

operate again there's a lot of people

that operate in that gray area and two

it's a lucrative business right you know

if if I know that I'm prohibited from

purchasing a firearm and I can find a

workaround way that technically is not

legal and I know there's a demand for it

um yeah you that's why you seen some of

this push back because there's an

industry for it it's not that folks feel

like hey uh know we we should have

freedom to these guns this is also um an

economic driver too for a lot of these

manufacturers and

sellers okay so um that'll be all the

questions for me at this moment and I'll

open it up for my colleagues and uh go

to my immediate right and councilman

Rodriguez thank you chair Jones um thank

you uh Brandon or Mr flut for joining us

this evening um like you said 79% with a

direct link to the other 21 right so

it's like damn if you do damn if you

don't um scariest part about it is they

can make the entire gun from the 3D

printer too right they don't even need

the partial parts and that's getting

past metal detection that's getting past

a lot of things that we use for our uh

safety and that our law enforcement use

for our safety daily so it's it's

horrifying um I'm glad you gentleman are

bringing it up and I'm glad Council gets

uh to work on this because it's

something I've questioned for a while um

in larger municipalities it's a huge

issue huge issue and I think from the

federal standpoint to go after

perhaps the software or the same way uh

they get red flags on IP addresses when

certain things are downloaded perhaps

you know we can do the same thing but I

know it would have to happen from a

federal level and then with the

manufacturer directly

so yeah I mean serialization these parts

would be you know would be ideal you

know would be great right you know and

same thing for the 3D printers at least

to it is my understanding and to my

knowledge that you do not have to have

to be matter of fact it's a bill

actually in the State uh like I'm

drawing a blank on the bill but it has

to do with 3D printers basically saying

that hey you have to become a federally

firearms license lie before you can uh

be able to purchase one of these now

again you can use this 3D printer 3D

prins for different re reasons um so

that's kind of the the the the the issue

there is that Hey listen um we we

certainly know there are people that you

utilizing this technology and giving the

current legal landscape are are able or

doing it for good you know U

recreational reason or you know uh you

know not for for non criminal uh reasons

uh but you know we have to look at

Public Safety as a whole right so just

because and you I'm this is arbitrary

number just because 25% of the people

are doing the right thing and utiliz Iz

in you know this process you know we

have to do we have to be and again and

this kind of goes back to what you

mentioned about FR too so I should also

mention is Da Charle is also in the DA's

ass Pennsylvania DA's Association uh

they also uh had publicly supported

House Bill 777 so this is even something

in their executive board uh for any of

you didn't know about the Pennsylvania

District Attorneys Association they're

not a a liberal group of folks right

these you know these are are are mostly

Republicans um and some in in many rural

areas that also see the the issue uh

director Flair real quick um and I could

just be spitting ball in here but would

you consider if we let's say pie in the

sky we were able to draft something get

it you know implemented tomorrow would

you consider or if you were able to

draft it with us should the

consideration for a ghost bun ghost gun

and the penalty be much higher than

being caught with like an illegal

firearm because at least with a legal

firearm the person who obtained it

obtained it legally purchase it how they

should have unless it's a street

purchase but yeah like with a ghost gun

you're complete intention is to do the

wrong thing well you know one of the

things you know Lamont talked about was

the the third class city code and you

know and even first class code in terms

of know being able to have the

flexibility to Institute those penalties

that's why you see in this bill it's a

fine based you know so in the perfect

world yes we will want to but I think

there are some legal constraints for us

to be able well is in a perfect world

yeah yeah hell yeah okay okay yeah

that's why I said Pie in the Sky trust

me I get the red tape but Pie in the Sky

that's a good question know for you know

for anyone that may read the bill see

well this the B does do more right you

know that we were mindful of that um and

again too for Philadelphia because

someone um from New York City Council

said you know if you admittedly if you

see the ordinance that was given to you

guys it is literally verbatim with a

couple things that are that we exed out

to be applicable to you guys as cold

right and the reason why we did that you

know it was a Heckler at the hearing he

was like yeah you guys did it the

verbatim you have and for me I said well

listen we're looking at the legal

ramifications right so if they upheld

this this ordinance specifically with

this specific text what the saying goes

if it ain't broke don't fix it right so

you know just in case that comes up too

but yeah that you know that that's a

good point to make in in a perfect world

absolutely yes yeah cuz

ideally if I'm a bad doer um I can get

this ghost gun into whatever

establishment I want and have a full

magazine in the back waiting for me you

know if I'm the bad doer right um and

most of these are like a carbon or

plastic right that the 3D printer so

yeah it's uh just unfortunate but yeah I

love to see how we can uh move this

forward thank you the initial defenses

that were coming up before they started

the regulation the federal side was was

first amendment oriented right I am just

writing programming I am just selling an

idea you know which is which is a hard

fight to have I mean it's you know as

opposed to they weren't actually doing

the manufacturing of it they weren't

printing them they weren't doing

anything and so it is a hard thing to

get around and uh you know but and I

know you wouldn't have the answer for

this nail but uh what if it is like with

the ATF if it was regulated kind of like

tobacco you have to be a certain age to

even be able to make the purchase we

have to look at all that right because

there there is a final rule that's come

out I will bet you there's other rules

from other agencies per

and I think we want to stay in line with

them absolutely you know and and enhance

them you know with what with what we're

doing um but hopefully they've drawn

some lines that we can follow thank you

no further sentiments chair Jones all

right thank you councilman Rodriguez

president Powers thank you I'm going to

rewind just a little bit because um

viewers who are watching on channel 20

may have missed some of your comments in

the very beginning it is being recorded

on YouTube so anybody can go back to

review so I'm just going to rewind just

a little bit to provide some context if

somebody is just now turning on their

television so we are joined by Mr

Brandon flood deputy director of

government affairs with ceasefire

Pennsylvania and we are in the midst of

a conversation about ghost guns so could

you define a ghost gun again please yeah

sure well welcome guys for those of you

that have come a little tardy we

appreciate you nonetheless uh so for

those of you don't know what ghost guns

are so ghost guns so what we're talking

about today are unfinished firearm build

kits uh which are you know have existed

for quite some time but what what the

issue is is that now you have these

unfinished kits that do not have any

markings um there's no record keeping or

there are no serial numbers on these

kits they and you heard me mentioning

they're unfinished so they're partially

built um you don't have to undergo a

background check you can literally

purchase it online um

they don't ask about I mean they might

ask about age but obviously there may be

ways they be able to skirt pass that I

haven't G now I've I've put the ghost

gun in my cart online with do M but I

haven't gone all the way through to see

what exactly um that entails but that's

what the issue is um and obviously the

the rampancy of these weapons uh that

again you know accessibility is key so

again if you can purchase this it's

almost like door Dash right if I can get

door dashed uh 80% of a firearm and able

to use a 3D printer or some other means

to complete the rest and I I

knowingly I I knowingly I know that I'm

a prohibited purchaser that I'm not

legal it's not legal for me to own or

possess a firearm um that's the

workaround right and in the context of

the city of Philadelphia excuse me in

the city of Harrisburg at least some of

the numbers that were the preliminary

numbers that were provided by Harrisburg

Police is that I believe since 2020 or

2021 it's over 50 or 51 ghost guns have

been recovered in the city again that's

recovered not doesn't necessarily mean

how many are actually circulating have

not yet been recovered so you know for

us you know obviously you know one of

the big things we hear from this

community is you know we try to prevent

violence as much as we can especially

gun violence but you know you know it's

it's it's a tough job to be able to do

that right so when we hear people talk

about the the the rate of these unsolved

homicides right one of one driver of

that is you know having guns that are

untraceable that are used in in these

offenses so you know essentially what

we're looking to do here is to uh Lobby

uh Harrisburg city council to Institute

an ordinance uh to if folks are going to

be either purchasing or selling these

weapons that they uh become a federally

Firearms licy before doing so uh so that

there is some accountability so we know

uh the folks that are purchasing these

items are lawful um and they're to be

able to possess and use these thank you

would you mind sharing um some of the

statistics that were outlined in your

talking points just so just to further

frame the issue and the significance

were not unique uh to this issue uh

within the Commonwealth yeah um as as

council president Bowers had just

mentioned uh Harrisburg is not unique to

this issue you know we're actually going

uh municipality well we're starting off

with some of the larger municipalities

to do this very same to advance this

very same initiative we started with

York uh harrisburg's next and then

Pittsburgh and Altuna and others you

know but uh to give some context about

this about how uh great of an issue this

is is in 2016 and you know and this is

something too that that the commissioner

can attest to too is uh a lot of law

enforcement agencies weren't even

capturing information about ghost guns

prior to 2020 you know so a lot of them

are just now being a are just now

tracking those fires but in 2016 there

were about 18 00 ghost guns nationally

that were recovered by law enforcement

um between 2016 and 2021 it was uh over

45,000 ghost guns have been recovered

and again this is a recovery rate

doesn't mean how many they're actually

in

circulation um you know the we I talked

about you heard me talk about York York

in 2023 they had uh 20 ghost guns that

were recovered right and we have a

couple right to know requests for a lot

of different police departments to to

get a greater sensus that because even

when we went to the state police to get

a number of to get an ideal number of

how many of these guns were recovered

they couldn't necessarily give us a

provide us with an accurate number

because they said a lot of these law

enforcement agencies they're not as

diligent with reporting these these

numbers right so um they gave us a you

know same thing with the attorney

general's off so you have different

agencies that are seizing these guns so

this is a a a very um this is a a

rampant issue and certainly one of the

things that was mentioned in a a local a

recent report by CBS 21 was that um you

know not only is this an issue generally

but uh it's more pronounced when it

comes to our youth that are in

possession of these weapons so know

that's kind of the target population of

folks are become and you know and and

word travels around again you know so

people know and you have some people

that just in the business I may not be a

gun dealer or FFL but I I know that if I

buy this ghost gun kit for $400 I can

sell it to Johnny for $600 $ right so

you have those kind of things happening

uh so this ordinance uh we at least want

to make a dent uh to to whatever extent

that we we could in Harrisburg city

thank you I don't have any other

questions all right

um councilwoman Davis thank you chair

Jones and Mr flood thank you for uh

being here this evening and presenting

and educating us I'm sure there are a

lot of people

in the city everywhere who don't know

much about ghost guns because I learned

a lot this evening from your

presentation and so until these bills

and ordinances are

passed you've given us some information

about how local municipalities and

parents and the community can actually

educate

themselves are there any Flyers out

right now in the community have you

created one and if

not what are are your plans

for that's a great question so in terms

of um from an educational standpoint so

for those of you here and those that are

watching if you go to council

woman vice president rather I haven't

seen you since the uh the uh promotion

so for those of you who are watching

um so those you are watching so to your

point if you go to our website ww. seire

paa we have a clearing house full of

information about each one of our

policies whether we're talking about

ghost guns uh lost and stolen know safe

storage Etc so we do have a clearing

house full of information there for you

to find that but this would be if this

ordinance is passed this would be a

great opportunity for us to partner with

you guys and and and and develop such

flyer and such Outreach uh initiatives

and uh and I'll be right there with my

ceasefire pin making sure that we're

handing these out to folks that uh and

making sure that they get it for those

that are green making sure we're sending

them to them electronically so we have

not done so in a campaign type uh in the

type a campaign type fashion but from an

informational standpoint and I also use

this as a Shameless plug May 7th

ceasefire PA especially for those of you

are local here we're going to have our

advocacy day at the capital right so we

F over 500 folks you'll see them Dawning

the orange shirts you know again so we

give them materials they get those

materials that are on our websites that

include uh frequently asked questions

General talking points and just general

information about policy X Y and

Z thank you very much no further

questions all right Council woman

Daniels thank you for the presentation

so I just have a lot of like logistical

questions um

so if someone is in Pennsylvania and

they order the stuff online what we're

suggesting thing is that they get the

federal license and that would make

their order a lawful order so yeah if a

gun is going to be sold to a resident of

Harrisburg this would apply to anyone

who's either selling or buying that is a

so if you're if you're purchasing as a

Harrisburg resident or if you are a a a

dealer presumably FFL or yeah if you're

ideally if you're I mean obviously you

can say people who you heard me use the

example there are people who aren't uh

licensed are selling but in the context

of a gun dealer that whether they're in

Harrisburg or outside of it if you're

selling to a Harrisburg resident yeah I

mean then that would be that would apply

but to your point I'm sure your

follow-up point would be is how would we

be able to uh ascertain that that online

sale from a dealer that may not be in

Harrisburg or in Harrisburg for that

matter that transaction happening I mean

that's the difficult part where I said

you have to kind of be uh a little

cretive creative even if especially for

talking about young people even if it's

looking at your monthly statements right

and seeing what things are coming off um

you know and obviously you know some of

those transactions don't necessarily are

very clear in what exactly was purchased

so uh but yeah that that's how the

scenario would work so um can you

explain the differences in the

requirements from a Pennsylvania license

and a federal license yeah so

Pennsylvania license you're probably

talking about what's known as a

concealed carry permit

um that so that's distinct from the

federal so this with essentially if you

are FFL a federally firearms license e

you would be able to operate as a dealer

so you have some folks like your um what

is that Cabellas or what what is the one

out there with the East Mall Bass Pro so

you have your big folks like Bass Pro

but you also have folks that are they

call them uh what do they call them uh

kitchen table uh ffls right where you

have folks that are licensed to sell

firearms but are doing it out of the a

residential residence right or maybe in

the basement of their mom's house doing

so so the distinction between becoming

an

FFL and what you're talking about would

be um your ability to carry a firearm uh

in a concealed Manner and Pennsylvania

so that would be the distinction so

someone with an FFL license they can

also sell not just correct not just to

carry corre yes okay okay and then

um so could someone not have a

Pennsylvania license but get the FFL

license just for the sake of bypassing

Pennsylvania rules what was the first

part you said so if

someone yeah re oh so like could someone

in Pennsylvania who would want to own a

gun but let's say they there's some

reason they can't get one in a

Pennsylvania license would they be able

to get the FFL license

no I mean if you can't get a concealed

carry permit you're not going to be able

to get the FFL um and the FFL would be

I'm sure a higher standard then

currently if you're getting a concealed

carry permit you just go to the

Sheriff's Office the sheriff sends it to

the state police the pic check um and

and they usually tell you pretty quickly

um you know depending upon the volume of

requests whereas with uh um but a

federal firearms licensing you're

dealing with there's a lot of other

barriers and and a lot of other uh a

greater degree of vetting by a federal

agency so yeah it would be a higher bar

so if you can't if you can't get the

concealed carry permit then you're not

going to be be able to pass mustard for

FFL and then if you're someone who let's

say you're an Ohio resident and you have

an Ohio license I think those folks have

to get a visitor's license when they

come in to pee right if they're going to

carry depends on the reciprocity

agreement a mid you I know it's it

differs by state so you the example of

Ohio so I would have to take a look at

what their reciprocity rules or if there

is any reciprocity rules between and if

there isn't then they're not allowed to

bring or well yeah I mean again some I

would have to look because even even the

reciprocity agreements there some of

them are um you know depending on the

state they're not the same doesn't you

don't get cart blanch as if you you have

the same rights in your state some are a

little bit limited you know so it would

vary by state I would assume Neil let

you know something different I I I know

if you're transporting a firearm over

state lines you better know what you're

doing right so can someone who has a

license uh in Ohio kind of use that FFL

license to then not have to deal with

Pennsylvania rules for I don't know

let's say your Prof yeah I mean and

that's part of being specific and and

having specificity in the the orance um

you know if I'm not mistaken it it

should outline that Pennsylvania is is

is the theory then going to turn every

buyer in Harrisburg into a seller

automatically is that what because

they're have a federal firearms

license yeah if they have to have one to

buy it suddenly we have a thousand

sellers well you you might here's the

thing you might already have a thousand

sellers now just operating you know

under Cloak and Dagger um you know so

and again there's some folks that and

and too we we've seen with even um go

back to the Biden Administration with un

ival background they issue rules around

Universal background checks so it's you

know breaking out the distinction

between someone who I might just have a

gun that I'm just I'm not a I'm not in

the business of selling right so they're

making a distinction if you are in the

business of selling versus hey I'm

selling this fire this one off firearm

to knel because I no longer have a use

for this doesn't mean that I'm in the

business of selling but I'm selling this

gun to Neil just because I'm offloading

or other otherwise so there you know and

again I'm sure that's going to be

something that that will be ated by the

US Supreme Court even when it comes to

um selling but yeah you have but I say

all that to say is you have some folks

that um are operating out of their homes

and may sell less than 20 guns a year

and and I can give you an example we

actually have another piece of

legislation that has to deal with

electronic records of sale of firearms

the way it works in PA now

is if I sell a transfer firearm and I'm

the dealer I'm supposed to keep record

of that and I send the paper form to the

state police right but the issue with

that is 2024 for starters so we still

sending paper forms and then you have

the state police to have this huge

administrative backlog so being able to

trace a gun it may take six months for

the State Police to process this uh this

form and by the time dozen crimes have

could have already been committed and we

don't have the ability to trace th those

Firearms so you know I I think that to

to Neil's point is um we we'll get you

hopefully have a lot more guidance that

dict Ates um how we address this in

Pennsylvania but in the meantime and to

your point too there are going to be

some things that um will be novel that

we have to kind of be a little agile

with uh but again this is meant to be a

stop Gap uh until which time the state

and the FEDS um get a handle on

this and that's it for me thank you

great questions

so and to I would use this as an

opportunity too because I know there's a

lot of new gun owners too again speaking

to our mission of promoting resp

responsible gun ownership in particular

I know we've seen during the pandemic uh

an increase in gun ownership in

particular when it comes to black and

brown women too so to Neil's Point

especially for those of you that are

traveling I know we're close to

Baltimore and Maryland two different

jurisdictions you know uh you can go to

the attorney general's website they have

some apps too where you can be able to

see what the rules are in other states

in terms of how you um transport that

weapon and if there are reciprocity

agreements between the states that's

something too that I uh

am mindful I have to be mindful

of okay thank you um I will now turn to

vice president green and see if she

would have any questions for you thank

you councilman Jones thank you for being

here today Mr flood um I don't have many

questions I guess I'm just trying to

understand the overall Logistics of the

tracking itself right so by putting

serial numbers on the kits it allows us

to know who originally B the kit I.E who

we would say originally makes the ghost

gun right well now now to be clear so

for for this ordinance we wouldn't be

dictating the uh serialization I mean

the perfect world we would but to your I

think the point you're getting to it

would be hell of a difficulty to take

take to people to do that and then more

importantly ensure that they did that um

but Statewide that is what our goal is

is to your point to be able to not only

Trace who purchased the gun uh but where

the gun uh the source was sourced from

as well

okay this here would merely say if

you're going to be in the business of

purchasing a unfinished firearm Bill kit

or selling a unfinished firearm Bill kit

AKA ghost gun that you would have to

obtain that federal firearms license and

again kind of part of what this issue is

is because at the example I used earlier

there's nothing that stops me today from

purchasing 10 ghost gun kits for

$300 and sell now obviously I'm selling

them illegally but selling them to

someone at a marked up price with no

accountability whatsoever so the the the

goal is to at least have some a greater

degree of accountability uh and ensure

that the people that are taking

possession of these weapons and more

importantly selling these weapons are

lawful and and that those transactions

are lawful okay and as far as

enforcement how do we enforce making for

sure that people have that federal

firearms license great question so as I

said you know obviously that's the

that's always the question when it comes

to especially public safety issues or

anything relative to to dealing with the

crimes code is enforcement so in this

case you know I said there's a a few

different methods and you know this is

where uh the community and law

enforcement um can be creative

especially you guys with the law

enforcement advisory committee um that's

that's the thing right so so you know

especially with entities like that you

guys can

so with with entities like that you guys

can be you know can be creative one of

the things I said is obviously know

self-regulation you know obviously we

know when a law you know people know for

people that are that operate in a gray

area say hey let's doesn't expressly say

that I can't do this it it doesn't

expressly say that I can do this this is

where people are finding that sweet spot

and taking advantage of it so

self-regulation people just knowing hey

this is a thing now here we have to be

on our toes so that would be the first

um I talked about the impaneling of task

force

a task force that can be specific to

this or you can build upon existing task

force I mentioned about the parent task

force you know especially if kids are uh

we same uh youth uh they tend to be the

ones that are caught with possession of

these weapons so having parents be more

Vigilant you know so you can use these

task forces or do something with the

DA's office and and really be inventive

and then you know to to um councilwoman

Davis's point we talked about

information campaigns right you know uh

just like for a lot of folks here today

and and those are viewing a lot of and

even some of my colleagues when to talk

about ghost guns you know um especially

for my apolitical friends you know they

have no clue about this right so the

more educ educated they are they're able

to see things in the home especially if

you see these parts of guns that may

look resemble like a gun like a kid a

toy or something um and then too we

talked about you know every for the most

part if you got a kid that's over 12

they usually have some kind of card or

whatever especially for Roadblocks or

whatever y'all be giving these cards for

so even having parents be vigilant about

uh the bank statements right you know

seeing exactly what this transaction is

so um and then we also talked about

lastly Philadelphia sued two of the

largest uh uh ghost gun kit makers and

we're able to broker an agreement where

they're going to Le stop selling fire

out those kits in Philadelphia for

finite period so those are some of the

ways to be able to enforce it obviously

and to add okay to add um you know one

of the other things that we would be

what I would be trying to do is to uh

sit with the president judge to bring in

the the

DJs you know because sometimes you know

uh just like with with codes sometimes

uh these ordinances and uh citations and

things get kicked over to the DJ's

office and they end up getting kicked

out so uh we just want to make sure that

we're we're uh in clear communication

with them as well and one of the biggest

things as again is um educating the

community about it so that's one of the

other pieces to the enforcement and and

one other piece too because this this is

It's

undervalued is um I talked about um sort

of like what amtr does they see

something say something you know

promoting us you know a healthy form of

snitching these days right you know

whether that's some kind of platform for

kids you know if you see something you

know to be able to have a mechanism to

report that hey I've seen this or I've

heard this I know as someone in the past

life I we know kid youth they share new

guns like they share sneakers or new

well I album right so they're they're

very anxious to share that information

so a lot of people so I've said this

before um people know who have the gun a

lot of community people know who have

the guns especially illegally so you

know that kind of goes back to being

able to do a specific campaign um and

again you know again this isn't the um

this isn't going to be a Panacea to the

issue here uh but at least you got have

some degree of flexibility at least

currently um to to be more proactive and

Hands-On uh around a firearm safety

issue where um under the current state

preemption uh statute you you guys

haven't been in years

past thank you very much um I think that

that wraps up the the questions I had um

I will just say to your one point about

cleak uh Harrisburg city council has

made the appointments to cleak um and

they're ready to to get that rolling I

know the administration said they are

having trouble filling their positions

so if you know anyone that might be

interested in joining the board I would

ask um that you pass that information on

to us or the administration so we can

get that up and rolling um and then just

apologize for my tardiness I was at a

community meeting so thank you no I

think I know a guy or two so yeah thank

you for that thank you I think those

areas is uh Southside and Allison

Hill correct okay yeah so reach out to

those

guys um anybody else have any questions

for Mr flood director

flood not a question just a statement

sure so according to the

usconcealedcarry.com um when you get a

carrier's permit uh there is

1.5 uh million license issued with a 12

million state population um 29 states

honor a PA carriers license with the

minimum age of 21 32 are reciprocating

states of that um so just answer whoever

had those questions and once again

that's

usconcealedcarry.com for anyone that

wants to dig deeper on that thank you

again we're not here especially for our

Republicans in the city or just for

folks that are aren't um just aren't

about firearm safety legislation is that

this effort in no way seeks to impede

your ability if you're lawful if you can

lawfully own and possess a firearm to

build your own firearm we uh certainly

promote responsible gun ownership here

um and uh you know so just wanted to

emphasize

that all right so thank you for your

presentation and um regardless how this

goes uh I definitely will be uh working

closely with you to try to get this

information out to our community I think

it's something that's very important um

especially um I think this is something

that the parent task should parent task

force should should uh latch on to

because um just getting our parents more

aware of the actions of our youth if

they aren't already um but we are here

to assist in that as well so I

appreciate you for uh coming out this

evening yeah thank you all for your

Indulgence and I'll send you that June

date too deputy director thank you thank

you thank you any final thoughts uh from

cicor grob on behalf of the

administration no we're happy to work

with um the council to formulate

something that is workable um uh we did

speak to the mayor who was in favor of a

uh such a piece of legis isation as long

as it complies with what the proposed

Federal Regulations are and doesn't

doesn't bring those into challenge in

any

way okay well thank you thank you uh

everyone for your time and attention

this evening the time is 6:32 p.m. I

will entertain a motion to adjourn is

there a second second we stand adjourn

thank you